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Old 10-03-2018, 07:27 AM   #31
Kromm
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post

Yeah Alternate Form (Human or Reptile Man) costs 15 points base and solves the getting around problem nicely enough.
This is true.

When doing so, the important thing to keep in mind is that Alternate Form changes your racial template and only that. Suppose you design a modest dragon template worth 200 points. To this you add 15 points for Alternate Form and, in a standard 250-point campaign, another 35 points of personal abilities. When you change into a human or reptilian, you have a 0-point human template or 30-point reptilian template with just the 35 points of personal abilities . . . you become a 35- to 65-point character. You don't get an extra 185 to 215 points of stuff (if you did, every gamer would play a dragon – think about it).

You can work around this somewhat by creating a very modest, minimalist dragon template that costs only 100 or 150 points. This would most likely assume the DX, IQ, Will, and Per of dragons are 100% personal abilities (so "standard" dragons are superior specimens who've bought these up from 10), and that some of the ST, HP, and HT are personal, too (though I'd be hard-pressed to accept no ST or HT bonus). Even so, you'll be less than equal to your allies in humanoid form: 150-point race + 15 points for Alternate Form + 85 points of personal abilities would mean becoming an 85-point human or 115-point reptilian, while 100-point race + 15 points for Alternate Form + 135 points of personal abilities would mean becoming a 135-point human or 165-point reptilian.

In all cases, you'd more or less be playing your dragon's henchman much of the time. Where your colleagues' special abilities would be casting powerful spells or being masterful with weapons, yours would be turning into a monster. That's quite awesome, but it would be more of a special-case trick with less all-around utility, unless the GM were prepared to make dungeons dragon-friendly (even setting aside size; e.g., 30 points for Flight (Winged) is wasted if the ceilings are low) and do the same for towns.

I believe the best bet in DF as presented (rather than in general fantasy that's slightly inspired by DF) is to play a reptilian who uses "I have a dragon ancestor" as justification for a whole bunch of special abilities like scales, claws, fire breath, wings, and almost anything else on the templates in Chapter 1 or suggested as special abilities in Chapter 3. You could certainly go further than I did in DF 3 and DF 11! I'm talking about extending "Races as Professions" (Pyramid #3/50, pp. 4-8) from dwarves and elves to dragon-blooded, in the process borrowing the logic of the Divine Gifts and Infernal Gifts perks on pp. 12-13 of DF 3.
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:07 AM   #32
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I'm talking about extending "Races as Professions" (Pyramid #3/50, pp. 4-8) from dwarves and elves to dragon-blooded, in the process borrowing the logic of the Divine Gifts and Infernal Gifts perks on pp. 12-13 of DF 3.
I seem to recall suggesting this immediately after Py #3/50 came out and being told "Why would you want this? We have power ups..." *laugh*

3e D&D/Pathfinder have both had to tackle the "rather-powerful-race-as-a-pc" issue, and one approach both propose is to start the character as an immature specimen with no hit dice and severely slashed abilities, and treat the race as a special prestige class that represents "growing into" your full powers. When designing the class it's an excellent chance to tweak it into being a full character class that is equivalent to the other classes, if you aren't married to becoming a "stock" version of creature.

It's the most elegant solution I've seen to the problem, and one that comes easily in strict points-based systems GURPS. With racial Power-Ups we have all the pieces, they're just a little disorderly compared to a formal profession template and don't come with good recommendations for essential non-racial traits like skills etc.

The big trick, however, is making sure players don't get excited buying their racial abilities and forget about improving things like basic skills. If you strictly restrict how many power ups they can start with (including the ever-unpopular "Zero") they'll at least have a firm foundation from a full profession (assuming you start with a racial template in the 20 points or less range).

If you wanted to be really aggressive you could cut it all the way down to something like the following and call it an actual dragon hatchling.

Dragon Hatchling
7 points

Attribute Modifiers: IQ -1 [-20], HT +1 [10], Per +1 [5], SM 0 [0]
Advantages: Burning Attack 1d (Jet, +0%) [5]; Claws (Sharp) [5]; Damage Resistance 1 (Tough Skin, -40%) [3]; Nictitating Membrane 2 [2]; Optional Quadruped [3]; Peripheral Vision [15]; Striker (Tail; Crushing: Clumbsy, -2 to hit, -40%) [3], Teeth (Sharp) [1].
Disadvantages: Disturbing Voice [-10]; Social Stigma (Monster) [-15].
Perks: Draconic Maturation.
Quirks: Naive
Features: Born Biter. Armor isn't interchangeable with humanoid armor (and not with Dragon-Blooded or Lizard Man armor either). Colorful Scales. Vestigial wings.
Notes: A classical quadrupedal dragon hatchling, out and about well before its parents would normally release it. Its wings are under-developed and the entire world is a new and interesting place! This interpretation makes dragon forepaws just as good as any humanoids hands, at least when they're small, and allows them to walk upright and use equipment like any other character, should they choose to. There's enough fantasy art that shows dragons acting like humans that I don't feel this is super-straining.
Alternately, you can toss out Optional Quadruped and give them Ham-Fisted 1, Semi-Upright and +1 ST. This would reduce racial cost to 5 points.

New Traits:
Perk: Draconic Maturation
You may purchase up to 30 points of Draconic advantages at character creation, and/or buy them in play, at their usual point costs.
Trait: Optional Quadruped, 3 points
You may freely choose to walk on four legs or two; walking on four legs is walking, not crawling, and subjects you to all the effects of the Extra Legs (4 legs) advantage, and the Horizontal disadvantage. Getting upright from walking on four legs counts as getting up from Prone - you must first sit up before you stand up, unless you successfully execute an Acrobatic Stand.
Extra Legs (4 legs; Temporary Disadvantages: Horizontal, No Fine Manipulators, -45%), [3].

---

I specifically restricted Draconic Maturation starting advantages to 30 point to keep total cost of racial abilities within range of other races, while still allowing Winged Flight which is going to be like catnip for some players. GMs may wish to knock that back to 20 points specifically to disallow Winged Flight right out of the gate.

Hatchlings barely out of the shell might be SM -1, have -2 ST, a further -1 or -2 IQ, -1 or -2 to DX, soft claws (blunt, not cutting), soft scales, and mental disadvantages. That makes them terrible PC race choices unless the entire campaign will be starring children.

A Dragon profession would make this a required race, give better starting attributes, and then something like 40 points in attribute bonuses or draconic advantages, and another 40-odd points in draconic advantages or personal advantages that are appropriate to dragons. And then skills, which might look like an odd combination of Barbarian and Wizard?
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Last edited by Bruno; 10-03-2018 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:45 AM   #33
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

My review is up here
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Old 10-03-2018, 05:26 PM   #34
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
When doing so, the important thing to keep in mind is that Alternate Form changes your racial template and only that. Suppose you design a modest dragon template worth 200 points. To this you add 15 points for Alternate Form and, in a standard 250-point campaign, another 35 points of personal abilities. When you change into a human or reptilian, you have a 0-point human template or 30-point reptilian template with just the 35 points of personal abilities . . . you become a 35- to 65-point character. You don't get an extra 185 to 215 points of stuff (if you did, every gamer would play a dragon – think about it).
This would indeed be the case for a dragon with a special ability to turn into a human or the like. However, the GM would also have the option of an alternative route - a type of dragon that has a humanoid form it turns into. The distinction here is that this form - we'll call it the "humanoid dragon" - would have its own template, as it's not just a human the dragon can turn into. To be fair, a humanoid dragon probably shouldn't be able to pass as a human or other race (or if it can, should have some sort of Advantage to this effect), meaning when people see it they know it's actually a dragon. Think of Mink (or her mother) from Dragon Half, if you've seen/read any of that. This gives the GM up to 200 points to play with (if the dragon template is [200], not including the [15] for the Alternate Form). It may also be necessary to include some of the [35] within the initial template - notably, if the player increases the character's DX with No Fine Manipulators or his ST with the adjustment for SM, when he shifts to humanoid form those traits would no longer have those discounts applied.

Once I've read through the book (which I'm going to buy now, as this thread-drift has piqued my interest), I may see if I can make up such a theoretical "humanoid dragon" template for one or more of the dragons presented there (with roughly-eyeballed point totals, anyway).
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Last edited by Varyon; 10-03-2018 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:35 PM   #35
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

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Dragon Hatchling
Yeah, now THIS template looks like it would sate my dragon-playing cravings!

<Luke steals template for own use>

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Old 10-03-2018, 10:07 PM   #36
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Once I've read through the book (which I'm going to buy now, as this thread-drift has piqued my interest), I may see if I can make up such a theoretical "humanoid dragon" template for one or more of the dragons presented there (with roughly-eyeballed point totals, anyway).
Yay for thread drift that results in sales!
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:09 PM   #37
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

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Dragon Hatchling
7 points
My only quibble: The breath weapon should cost 2 FP just like it does for Adult dragons.


[EDIT]
I thought I was in the DFRPG threads... my error. Not sure if DF Dragons have that limitation or not. Yet.
[/EDIT]
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:25 AM   #38
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

By the way, thanks for all the great discussion! This was a quick writing project I did to bring GURPS Dungeon Fantasy up to speed with the DFRPG in terms of monsters . . . I didn't realize people liked dragons that much. Now I have to think of the next monster to put in the spotlight.
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:33 AM   #39
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

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My only quibble: The breath weapon should cost 2 FP just like it does for Adult dragons.
Ah yes; I copied it wholesale from the Dragonblooded template. I only realized Dragonblooded don't spend FP for their breath weapon when I did that.

EDIT: I've written it up on my blog including that tweak, and a couple of other little things, including making a formal lens for dragons that aren't pseudohumanoids.
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Old 10-04-2018, 07:52 AM   #40
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Default Re: GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 4: Dragons

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
By the way, thanks for all the great discussion! This was a quick writing project I did to bring GURPS Dungeon Fantasy up to speed with the DFRPG in terms of monsters . . . I didn't realize people liked dragons that much. Now I have to think of the next monster to put in the spotlight.
Well, it just so happens that it's very timely for my campaign, and will save me time and effort working up a dragon from scratch or from DFRPG, so I'm very happy with it.

By the way, I'm re-reading DF16: Wilderness Adventures, and I love the tone you struck writing and editing the DF series. I know some people find it too light, but I like the irreverent tone and humour (though my players suspect I'm laughing at their expense, when I skim passages checking rules).
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