Consequences of Racial Intuitive Mathematician and Eidetic / Photographic Memory?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The question is, what makes the [scientific] infrastructure more compact, and what merely makes it grow faster without increasing the efficiency?

Higher average intelligence, at least in the field in question. I don't think you can significantly increase speed without increasing efficiency.

Gurps IQ is recursively defined as the ability to solve mental problems and use IQ-based Skills. The great majority (if not all) of technological Skills are IQ-based.

Specifically Engineering is the ability to design new technological devices. It's affected by Mathematical Ability. The useful skills of Physics and Mathematics are also covered.

If you want to advance to a new TL with fewer people those people must be able to do the same work with less. That sure looks like quality over quantity to me.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Higher average intelligence, at least in the field in question. I don't think you can significantly increase speed without increasing efficiency.

Gurps IQ is recursively defined as the ability to solve mental problems and use IQ-based Skills. The great majority (if not all) of technological Skills are IQ-based.

Specifically Engineering is the ability to design new technological devices. It's affected by Mathematical Ability. The useful skills of Physics and Mathematics are also covered.

If you want to advance to a new TL with fewer people those people must be able to do the same work with less. That sure looks like quality over quantity to me.

Well, the idea is to promote efficiency/quality without encouraging the brute-force solutions through quantity that are present in the historical humanity.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, the idea is to promote efficiency/quality without encouraging the brute-force solutions through quantity that are present in the historical humanity.

Ok then, you want higher IQ and/or Mathermatical Ability Talent.

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, the idea is to promote efficiency/quality without encouraging the brute-force solutions through quantity that are present in the historical humanity.

I'm of two minds about this - I recognize what you're trying to avoid, but I don't like your implicit characterization of human history. It seems to me that much of human scientific history is the story of people doing exceedingly clever things - science has been dominated by genius individuals for its entire history (until institutionalized funding started and science-as-a-career became possible with WWII and the Cold War). The fact that we still remember Newton and Hooke and Kepler and Boyle ought to suggest that it's not brute effort that solved early scientific problems. Anyway, all I mean is that while humanity has certainly availed itself of cheap labor when it was available, don't discount a deep history of cleverness that has allowed talented individuals to make giant leaps in efficiency and quality.

Anyway back to the actual topic at hand - keep in mind, Fred Brackin, that while EM and IM don't in themselves mean that the individual in question will be a good scientist/engineer/whatever, these traits are part of the racial template, not the individual characters. The choices people make (including what skills they learn) will be greatly influenced by their innate talents. I have no trouble believing that people born with EM and/or IM will gravitate towards quantitative disciplines like science and engineering, and use their innate talents to great effect there. Indeed, real-world history would seem to agree!

Racial Mathematics Talent is an OK way to go, but I don't think it's better than EM/IM - in fact, I think it makes the Sirkin quite a bit more one-dimensional, and cuts out a lot of their low TL potential as general advisors, rather than human computers. I'd understand a bit of racial IQ, but even that... GURPS IQ isn't really an in-born trait - it has genetic components, for sure, but it can be developed. If a child was recognized to be Sirkin early in life (seems likely), I would be surprised if that child wasn't encouraged to pursue a "life of the mind." Indeed, I suspect many Sirkin children, even if unrecognized as such, would independently pursue such a path through their development thanks to their natural facility with facts and figures. Such development will lead naturally to adult Sirkin, on average, having higher IQ, Engineering and/or Science skills, and the like. I'd rather Sirkin characters pay for those as character choices, not as in-born, even if they are more likely. Humans are way more likely to have skill in earth Literature than martians, but Talent (Earth Literature) isn't part of their racial package.

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by downer

I see a speed up of TL development more in terms of identifying the need for new technology. Genesis mentioned the enormous effects on trade that this race might have, and trade is usually a factor in technological development. I would imagine that Molokh's world is far more networked than ours used to be, due to merchants being more organized and successful, what with good maps, accurate market analyses, stable currencies, and all. It would also be more populated, due to medical knowledge (not technology, mind you), because more diseases will be identified, and the treatments known. Both population sizes and economic interconnection play a major role in scientific development. It's the secondary effects that matter.

All of these things seem like likely effects, for sure, but Molokh seems to be trying to aim somewhere else... And I actually think her aims can be well justified from the same starting place. Better mapping, medicine, mercantile efficiencies, etc. might lead to population boom and the like, but I can imagine constraints that would prevent this.

As one example, I could imagine a low-TL situation where Sirkin behave like master craftsmen for their mental arts. They might accept work on commission and produce solutions tailored to individual circumstances, which would be not as suitable for other applications. The Sirkin mercantile consultant goes over the books for a Merchant Guild, reviews the economic history of the region, memorizes maps, and comes back a week later with some cryptic advice: "route your spice caravans through Bejimmey, instead of the coastal trade route, and forget Foressian grain - buy fruit there to sell in Emacia instead." Sure enough, three seasons later the merchants find that profits are up, they're loosing less to rot en route, and they don't have to hire as many guards for their inland caravans! Of course, this advice isn't general enough to help everyone (even if the merchant guild published the solution they paid good money for, which they won't). So there you go: artisan efficiency, on sale by commission. I'll leave other political, biological, environmental, and religious explanations as an exercise to the reader.

Genesis' comment about these people running the place led me to a question: can they? I mean, they are logistical and administrative geniuses, but there's 20 normal folks for one of them up to TL 6. I doubt those people would take too kindly to "foreign rule". Humans are bastards like that. If the Sirkin (that the name of the species?) were able to make everyone so wealthy and content that rebellion disappears from the public imagination, it might work out. But every crisis, and crises there will be, might lead to calls of "burn the Sirkin!". Movers and Shakers in the background sounds more like it.

You might think so, but history is full of local populaces ruled by foreigners: Scotland is still owned by the English! The entire Iberian peninsula was ruled by a foreign aristocratic class exploiting local peasantry before the Moorish invasion: they maintained control because they made martial training a pastime traditionally exclusive to the upper class. China was ruled by invading Mongols for a couple hundred years... the list goes on forever. Anyway, Molokh's Sirkin have some interesting breeding strategies (and look superficially human) - it might be entirely possible for a Sirkin to rule without anybody getting upset, depending on the details of the setting.

Now, Molokh at one point seemed to imply that Sirkin might not be interested in power-for-power's sake, which might lead them naturally to advisory roles, but don't discount the power of the outlier! An unusually aggressive or power-hungry Sirkin could be quite a force... If the Sirkin are just as greedy as humans you can count that they will be over-represented in positions of power (especially as TLs advance): leadership roles usually require mental/social acuity, rather than physical. If Sirkin are noticeably maladjusted socially this will tip the balance away from Sirkin leaders, but still: in the modern world there are a handful of minorities quite over-represented in positions of power because of a cultural tradition of intellectual achievement - imagine what legit, inborn talent would do!

I actually like the idea of a superstitious dread from the general populace on lower TLs. This might lead to the Sirkin forming tightly knit communities and placing themselves under the protection of a lord in return for their service (the Medieval Jew parallel comes to mind again). That would increase the power of those lords, but leave the Sirkin in an inferior social position, which they can't leave for fear of the torches and pitchforks.

Yeah, this is a possibility. Of course, these things will likely vary quite a lot depending on local culture, as Molokh rightly said. I expect that Sirkin biology would negate isolated communities - they need humans in order to breed - but they might enjoy their own company in a professional setting.

Such Sirkin (the Mentat / power behind the throne / Schutzjude style) would likely have traditions that back up their abilities, such as organized schooling of some kind, in which the old Sirkin would hand down their memorized knowledge to the young and as roguebfl pointed out, teach them the optimal use of that knowledge. This might come in the form of personal apprenticeships or mass schooling, and would probably involve some sort of journeyman stage, in which the Sirkin absorbs the knowledge of far away communities.

It might be a traditional part of a Sirkin child's development to leave his host family and find a Sirkin tutor... Especially at low TL, when Sirkin are few and far between, this might be a major rite of passage to find a master who can accept a young student. The child might have to prove himself... now I'm getting distracted with hypothetical cultural artifacts. Anyway, a traditional journeyman stage makes a lot of sense coupled with a "master craftsman" sort of feel.

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

As I mentioned in the biology thread, I think I'll allow them to routinely have Passing Appearance - this seems like a reasonably 'safe' feature to have. That being said, they are not very different from the local Nariyása, as long as they properly hybridize.

Well, physical appearance isn't the only way to be recognized... Demonstrating exceptional memory, for instance, might provoke a superstitious response in some cultures. Humans routinely discriminate against each other for entirely invisible differences, like religion or politics.

While a certain level of 'these are weirdos, do not be surprised' is welcome, outright ostracization is not.

Different cultures are different, so there's no single answer, but I'll try to look at the possibilities.

Yeah - like I said, you've got options. These things might vary quite a lot from culture to culture, and might change rapidly: Christians went from being lion food to members of the official religion pretty quick in ancient Rome. While Jews in Europe were widely despised under medieval Christian rule, in Spain under the Caliphate they lived pretty well all things considered.

Most likely Sirkin will not be fighting for the position of a master, because they see leadership as another job to be done more than a reward in itself; diplomacy with other leaders isn't something they can't handle, but still mediocre in terms of things one would want to do.

A tendency to maintain neutrality of sorts in a culture full of conflicts would be an objective that is easier to accomplish when you aren't attached too strongly to any faction - being a master of one's own faction certainly makes neutrality more difficult.

Racial neutrality is an interesting idea. Would such a tendency be truly in-born, or culturally traditional?

Regarding inheritance rights: the tricky reproductive mechanism of Sirkin means that they have less of a chance to have officially recognized heirs than the Nariyása.

No doubt. Can Sirkin inherit the holdings of their host family? Can Sirkin choose their own heirs? Perhaps an older Sirkin can name a younger one as heir, regardless of actual realationship... Or something like that. Likely to be important in any society where Sirkin are independent people, and not just attached to a human family.

This seems to be more of an enforcement of the 'if you have done no wrong, you have nothing to fear' trope, and will apply equally well if a ruler has a loyal Sirkin adviser.

I don't think I understand your point - I was trying to say that while many things can be hidden from a mundane king, a Sirkin will have certain advantages stemming from easy intimacy with details that escape most people in positions of broad authority.

Why? Others still need him to do paperwork, even though he personally keeps no notes.

Depends on how many Sirkin you have working together, or if the Sirkin operative is working alone... A paperless spy agency would avoid a lot of trouble!

Do you think IM/EM is worthy of a +2/+4 to Strategy in terms of Mass Combat? That starts looking overpowered.

I wouldn't, no - but I might allow Sirkin to buy levels of Strategy unavailable to others, or allow IM/EM to substitute for a handful of assistants in some situations where they might be helpful.

Disagree. While remembering all the data is good, one must still get the data, and have it processed with proper skills.

It's true the Sirkin must have the appropriate skills, but EM especially is a good excuse for a Sirkin character to have accumulated a lot of useful skills (it's not as overpowered as it was in 3e, to be sure, but I'd still allow a character with EM to put points into skills I would normally rule he couldn't: "you're a rural farm boy, no you can't put 8 points into Savoir Faire (High Society)") A Sirkin in power certainly has underlings, but it's possible that none of them would be as powerful or influential as a mundane king's top vizier. After all, it's a popular trope that the top vizier has disproportionate influence and plenty of plots and schemes of his own - a human might have trouble pulling that off underneath a watchful Sirkin ruler.

So, basically, with enough Sirkin advisors, the bunch of Nariyása civilizations will be quite okay even in a land with limited resources . . . as long as military conflicts don't ruin the careful efficiency.

I don't see any reason for the presence of Sirkin not to be stabilizing: if you can use resources more effectively there's not as much reason to fight! Although this, of course, is complete handwaving - you could probably justify the reverse if you'd rather have it that way.

Good. This gives good ground for starting with good Bio-Tech TL in the area where the future underground city Justicariate will be built.

Okay, so they get even more of a share of engineering, I guess.

The way I see it, Sirkin will be a potential boon to whatever industry they join. Their numbers will limit their wide-spread impact at low TL, but widespread EM can't help but have a major impact all over.

With timekeeping I'm okay. But I'm not sure I want the rest of the world to be networked with the Nariyása Flatlands (the primary land where Sirkin evolved along with the Nariyása).

Well, at a certain TL you'll need some serious explanations as to why that's the case, right? If history is any guide, it's hard to stop people traveling wherever they can get to...

The question is how soon this knowledge will have a use. Sure, calendars will be transmayan. :)

Well, the calculus is certainly a game-changer in terms of the engineering that can be done. Someone suggested that science has never been held up by lack of mathematics, which is clearly false. People who just don't have to worry about arithmetic and who flawlessly remember complex equations do incredibly important scientific work - look at what Feynman did, largely on the strength of his fabulous memory and facility with math!

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Genesis

I'm of two minds about this - I recognize what you're trying to avoid, but I don't like your implicit characterization of human history. It seems to me that much of human scientific history is the story of people doing exceedingly clever things - science has been dominated by genius individuals for its entire history (until institutionalized funding started and science-as-a-career became possible with WWII and the Cold War). The fact that we still remember Newton and Hooke and Kepler and Boyle ought to suggest that it's not brute effort that solved early scientific problems. Anyway, all I mean is that while humanity has certainly availed itself of cheap labor when it was available, don't discount a deep history of cleverness that has allowed talented individuals to make giant leaps in efficiency and quality.

This wasn't exactly my idea. It's just that I keep hearing that progress is about R&D groups, not lone inventors, so this time I decided to roll with it instead of arguing. And now you consider me a traitor. Sigh. :)

Originally Posted by Genesis

Racial Mathematics Talent is an OK way to go, but I don't think it's better than EM/IM - in fact, I think it makes the Sirkin quite a bit more one-dimensional, and cuts out a lot of their low TL potential as general advisors, rather than human computers. I'd understand a bit of racial IQ, but even that... GURPS IQ isn't really an in-born trait - it has genetic components, for sure, but it can be developed. If a child was recognized to be Sirkin early in life (seems likely), I would be surprised if that child wasn't encouraged to pursue a "life of the mind." Indeed, I suspect many Sirkin children, even if unrecognized as such, would independently pursue such a path through their development thanks to their natural facility with facts and figures. Such development will lead naturally to adult Sirkin, on average, having higher IQ, Engineering and/or Science skills, and the like. I'd rather Sirkin characters pay for those as character choices, not as in-born, even if they are more likely. Humans are way more likely to have skill in earth Literature than martians, but Talent (Earth Literature) isn't part of their racial package.

Well, I think it's reasonable to list some math talent(s) as optional traits that are race-appropriate.
As for IQ, AFAIK GURPS has many examples of a genetic template modifying IQ, but not much in the way of educational ones modifying it (individuals buying up IQ don't count). Perhaps when Social Engineering is out, we'll see more attention payed to developing and implementing Educational Templates (like Mode Training).
I wouldn't want to give them a straight IQ bonus - seems too flavourless and generic. (And is seen as a waste of points by players, because if they want +IQ, they would buy it individually.)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Genesis

Now, Molokh at one point seemed to imply that Sirkin might not be interested in power-for-power's sake, which might lead them naturally to advisory roles, but don't discount the power of the outlier! An unusually aggressive or power-hungry Sirkin could be quite a force... If the Sirkin are just as greedy as humans you can count that they will be over-represented in positions of power (especially as TLs advance): leadership roles usually require mental/social acuity, rather than physical. If Sirkin are noticeably maladjusted socially this will tip the balance away from Sirkin leaders, but still: in the modern world there are a handful of minorities quite over-represented in positions of power because of a cultural tradition of intellectual achievement - imagine what legit, inborn talent would do!

Not exactly maladjusted, but rather passive. -1 from Oblivious is generally offset by +1 from Appearance, but they're still at -1 to Resist Social Skills. Not a big deal, but notable by perceptive people. But I wouldn't say they're high on social acuity.

I guess some would end up in positions of power, but most wouldn't.

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

This wasn't exactly my idea. It's just that I keep hearing that progress is about R&D groups, not lone inventors, so this time I decided to roll with it instead of arguing. And now you consider me a traitor. Sigh. :)

Yeah, no one's ever happy :). The truth is that modern science is all about R&D groups - we've industrialized it! But that's not the historical norm... Having Sirkin around might even make it harder to industrialize scientific discovery, if there's social pushback from the 'traditional' inventors.

Well, I think it's reasonable to list some math talent(s) as optional traits that are race-appropriate.
As for IQ, AFAIK GURPS has many examples of a genetic template modifying IQ, but not much in the way of educational ones modifying it (individuals buying up IQ don't count). Perhaps when Social Engineering is out, we'll see more attention payed to developing and implementing Educational Templates (like Mode Training).
I wouldn't want to give them a straight IQ bonus - seems too flavourless and generic. (And is seen as a waste of points by players, because if they want +IQ, they would buy it individually.)

Optional race-appropriate traits make perfect sense to me - I'd want a bunch of such examples for any race in a brand-new setting: they provide game-mechanical context for the prose you use to describe the roles the race's members play in your world. But, as you mention, I'd shy away from a racial IQ bonus, although I'm well aware there are GURPS templates that use it. It even makes sense for some beings - but they'd have to be very distinct from humans. My sense of the Sirkin from your other posts is that the differences are apparent, but not vast. Even +1 racial IQ would make a big difference in the way the Sirkin interact with humans. And, of course, it's flavorless and generic! Lame. You might even list high IQ as optional and race-appropriate. Anyone who chooses to play a Sirkin is probably going to buy IQ up anyway, right?

My point about development raising IQ was not that I'd seen it in GURPS templates, but merely that, as Fred Brackin said, GURPS IQ is the ability to solve mental problems and use IQ-based skills. This generic ability can be trained - people can be educated in such a way that they learn better! Anyway, the point is moot - I'd shy away from racial IQ bonuses for a race like Sirkin on the grounds of point inflation alone.

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Not exactly maladjusted, but rather passive. -1 from Oblivious is generally offset by +1 from Appearance, but they're still at -1 to Resist Social Skills. Not a big deal, but notable by perceptive people. But I wouldn't say they're high on social acuity.

I guess some would end up in positions of power, but most wouldn't.

I'm surprised that a race that requires imitation of human social skills to breed would have any inborn social disads. Wouldn't they be heavily selected against? Sirkin who aren't socially adept enough with humans to have sex with them have a lower chance that their genes will be passed on - seems like a recipe for a whole race of playboys (and girls)! Of course, we've discussed this ad nauseum in a previous thread, so YMMV.