Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-23-2020, 08:44 AM   #21
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
in GURPS Traveller 3E
..
digitigrade sophonts like Vargr and Aslan
anyone know which book in the G:T series that's in?

Also: I found in 3e Martial Arts there is a "Tail Kick" which is an interesting approach to tail strike rules for those who lack 'striker' tails
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2020, 09:52 AM   #22
cptbutton
 
cptbutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
I'm fuzzy on details, but in GURPS Traveller 3E there was inconsistency on if digitigrade sophonts like Vargr and Aslan could kick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
anyone know which book in the G:T series that's in?

Also: I found in 3e Martial Arts there is a "Tail Kick" which is an interesting approach to tail strike rules for those who lack 'striker' tails
All I could find:
tl;dr: Vargr can't kick because they have digitigrade feet, but that doesn't stop Aslan or Droyne from doing it.

I suspect disagreement about what exactly counts as kick versus other ways of injuring with feet.

Vargr:
GURPS Traveller Classic
p 83
Quote:
Disadvantages
Cannot Kick [-5]. Their digitigrade posture probibits Vargr from kicking in close combat (except stamping on prone foes). This disadvantage was set at -5 points, offsetting the cost of their Teeth.
GURPS Traveller Alien Races 1
p 65
Quote:
The combination of bipedal posture and digitigrade leg design means a Vargr cannot kick effectively.
p 86
Quote:
Cannot Kick [-5 points]. Due to their digitigrade posture, Vargr can’t kick in close combat (unless a foe is prone and the Vargr standing, in which case they can stamp downward). This disadvantage’s cost was set at -5 points, canceling the 5 point cost that Vargr pay for having sharper-than-normal teeth.
Aslan
GURPS Traveller Alien Races 2
p 5
Quote:
Aslan posture is upright and digitigrade – they walk on the pads of their toes.
p 45
ASLAN AND THE MARTIAL ARTS
[...]
Quote:
The various kick maneuvers are rare, being less effective than a strike with the dewclaw, but may be encountered as secret maneuvers used by a particular school.
(Cannot Kick is not in the template.)

Droyne
GURPS Traveller Alien Races 3
p 65
Quote:
The rear limbs are digitigrade – Droyne walk on their toes, like Aslan or Vargr.
p79
Quote:
The Winged Claw: Sample Droyne Martial Art [8 points]
[...]
Maneuvers: Breakfall, Feint, Hit Location, Jab, Jump Kick [2 points], Kicking.
p93
Quote:
Claws see p. CI67
Droyne and Chirper feet – though not hands – have 15-point Claws, doing +2 damage with kicks.
p96
Quote:
DROYNE MARTIAL ARTS
Droyne martial arts focus on avoiding blows and damaging an opponent without breaking one’s own fragile bones. They emphasize wing-assisted jumping kicks which bring the claws on the attacker’s feet to bear. Human observers of Droyne unarmed combat are often reminded of roosters fighting for dominance.

A Droyne martial art should give Droyne practitioners a +1 with any wing-assisted Jump Kick. Many incorporate Judo, favoring the Dodge-like qualities of its Parry. Some Droyne styles also incorporate psionic techniques, though only exceptional Droyne can learn the required psionic skills.
(Cannot Kick is not in the template.)
__________________
--
Burma!
cptbutton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2020, 02:48 PM   #23
Johnny Angel
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

I would say that all kicks follow the general rules unless otherwise stated.

The kicks which list different text for a consequence of a miss do so because the results differ from the standard assumption. The lack of additional text does not (imo) denote a lack of consequence derived from the general category.

To me, this is consistent with how the rest of the rules are written. For example, some spells work differently than the general rules for magic state; when exceptions occur, they are spelled out. Spells which do not specifically state extra stuff do not cease to follow the general rules.

Anecdotally, most rpgs I have played follow the concept of exception-based design when explaining how the game works. General rules are stated. Extra text is included when an exception to the general rule exists. Specific usually over-rides general.
Johnny Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2020, 07:16 PM   #24
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

Looking at pics of the Vargr it really doesn't seem obvious why they would not be able to throw kicks. I would think if anything, someone who always walks around on tiptoe would be able to pull their toes out of the way better for striking using the ball of the foot. It's the flatfooted folk who often end up hurting themselves doing thrust kicks with toes accidentally... would definitely remove 'cannot kick' if updating them to 4E.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
GURPS Traveller Classic p 83 digitigrade posture probibits Vargr from kicking in close combat (except stamping on prone foes)
That actually makes it sound like you could still kick at reach 1 since that wouldn't be close combat... and kicking in 3e couldn't be done in close combat anyway unless you had karate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
GURPS Traveller Alien Races 1 p 65 means a Vargr cannot kick effectively.
THAT sounds like there would just be penalties, rather than 'not at all'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptbutton View Post
p 86 Vargr can’t kick in close combat (unless a foe is prone and the Vargr standing, in which case they can stamp downward).
In that case you should still be able to kick downwards at a standing foe's foot...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Angel View Post
I would say that all kicks follow the general rules unless otherwise stated.

The kicks which list different text for a consequence of a miss do so because the results differ from the standard assumption. The lack of additional text does not (imo) denote a lack of consequence derived from the general category.
There are no rules for a general category though. There is the kicking technique, and other technique also named kick which sometimes say to operaet under similar rules.

I could see not applying a DX roll for balance on a missed push-kick for example, because pushing and kicking are actually very different motions.

Normal kicks are very fast, so if you miss, you have a lot more momentum to slow down to maintain your balance.

Push kicks are slower and more grinding. If you can't even line up your foot with your foe then you're not really going to commit much force to it to begin with, so I'm fine with not having any chance of falling there.

As explained in my earlier post, the writeup for Back Kick in Basic already implies following basic rules, and Lethal Kick does as well in it's original incarnation where it's Lethal Strike atop basic Kicking rules.

Sweep Kick doesn't, which I'm fine with for similar reasons as Push Kick: because it's more sustained-force after making contact, not "already-going-max-speed" like striking.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2020, 07:26 AM   #25
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polkageist View Post
One of the joys of GURPS is the optionality of various rules. The fall-on-miss thing for kicks can be a bit of a drag in terms of book-keeping, I think I only used it if it was an untrained kick or if it was particularly interesting. Most of the time if a character had a goodly number of points in a martial art then kicking mooks wouldn't warrant a fall check on the occasional miss.

But yes, all kicks are kicks, and knee strikes aren't kicks because a little critical thinking gets us to a reasonable conclusion there.
I think in the context of risking falling over I call a knee "a kick" here, simply because risk of a biped falling largely comes from one of your feet no longer being on the ground as you use the leg to attack with (be it with a knee or foot).

So I don't worry about weather attacks involving legs are "kicks" or not, I worry about weather i think they risk losing your balance while doing them.

(however this is very much a play style position, I don't worry too much about precise rules definitions)

That said I find the roll to stay on your feet often a nuisance roll that adds little to my game. So I tend to say unless the modified target it 10 or less dont bother to roll. Unless the terrain is particularly difficult or the footing bad.
So the net effect is in my games unless you really clumsy, inexperienced or trying this drunk, impaired or on something like a frozen pond, or scree face you probably fine.
__________________
Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation.
*not too high of course

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-24-2020 at 09:49 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2020, 09:40 AM   #26
Polkageist
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

It looks scary on the outside, but it is nice to have a weird situation crop up like a knee strike while standing on gravel and bacon grease in the back of a tipping-out dump truck, and GURPS is like "hey, we've got a mechanic for that if you want it"
Polkageist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2020, 09:56 AM   #27
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polkageist View Post
It looks scary on the outside, but it is nice to have a weird situation crop up like a knee strike while standing on gravel and bacon grease in the back of a tipping-out dump truck, and GURPS is like "hey, we've got a mechanic for that if you want it"
Yep, exactly

there's a good fight scene in one of the 70's musketeer films where they fight on an iced over river that makes me think of this.

I think there is sometimes the temptation with such a complete system to apply all possible rules to a situation weather it benefits from it or not and you risk "missing the wood for the trees".
__________________
Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation.
*not too high of course
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2020, 02:47 PM   #28
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I think in the context of risking falling over I call a knee "a kick" here, simply because risk of a biped falling largely comes from one of your feet no longer being on the ground as you use the leg to attack with (be it with a knee or foot).

So I don't worry about weather attacks involving legs are "kicks" or not, I worry about weather i think they risk losing your balance while doing them.
Possibly mitigated, of course, if one has a foe well-grappled, since then you can basically use them as a point of support (like a cane) to avoid toppling... or at least if you topple, you should pull them down with you.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2020, 02:11 AM   #29
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Possibly mitigated, of course, if one has a foe well-grappled, since then you can basically use them as a point of support (like a cane) to avoid toppling... or at least if you topple, you should pull them down with you.
Yep, and since you mention grappling, I'm thinking of all this with the stability rules in technical grappling in mind.
__________________
Grand High* Poobah of the Cult of Stat Normalisation.
*not too high of course
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2020, 06:10 AM   #30
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: When is a Kick a Kick?

The issue is that fine line between "I'm so good at grappling I can use my opponent to avoid falling" vs "I'm barely handling this grapple and actually more likely to fall because it's so unstable".

In either case, it should be the strength of your grip which determines whether you're still connected, and whether or not your fall is prevented by your own opponent's balance, or if it's so compromised that they must come toppling too under the burden of the extra encumbrance.

I know if I'm carrying something heavy (or wobbly) it's harder to keep my balance. If we applied encumbrance penalties to some kind of rule for walking around, then that could eventually on a fail lead to tumbles.

Stacking those penalizing factors (like say, walking on ICE while a pair of goblins are dangling from each arm) on a roll is the best way I can think. Maintaining balance is usually considered so simple that you don't even roll, so I'd give a built-in No Nuisance Rolls and enough basic bonus (maybe +15 to skill, so even a DX 1 creature has skill 16) to not worry about it in normal circumstances, but then accumulating problems like grappling foes and slippery surfaces could introduce rolls.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.