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05-24-2023, 09:40 PM | #1 |
Join Date: May 2010
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Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
Something I've been thinking about lately: Basic Set suggests that in some societies, women will have Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen), something reinforced in the relatively recent Steampunk books and possibly other sources. But the main mechanic for Second-Class Citizen is a flat -1 to reactions, which seems like a poor fit for a great deal of historical sexism, particularly when you consider all the things GURPS uses reaction rolls for:
But if you're not using reaction penalties for societies where women's status is "significantly lesser then men but not at the 'literally property' level", there's the question of how do you represent it. If the restrictions are genuinely significant then treating it as a sort of 0-point feature seems wrong. Thoughts?
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Handle is a character from the Star*Drive setting (a.k.a. d20 Future), not my real name. |
05-24-2023, 10:17 PM | #2 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
A lot of reaction modifiers (both positive and negative) should really be more focused than a general reaction adjustment, but as long as you accept that a poor reaction doesn't have to be dislike, just unhelpful, treating being female as second class citizen seems not terrible.
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05-25-2023, 12:06 AM | #3 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
The reaction modifiers for any social stigma require interpretation and taking circumstances into account. Here are some thoughts.
1. A gentleman would not strike a lady. But most men even in a steampunk setting are not gentlemen and most women are not ladies. 2. The modifier probably wouldn't apply to haggling for the price of fruit or fish in the marketplace, things where the merchant's patrons are more than half female anyway but that's not a thing that you would generally roll for anyway. The basic necessities of life are covered by cost of living. Rolling is for non-routine transactions, and I don't have a problem with the idea that women would almost always be at a slight disadvantage for almost all of that and the circumstances they wouldn't be can be handled by circumstantial dice bonuses which should be in play on a regular basis anyway. 3. Requests for help are complicated since, since really it's not that men would be less likely to help if asked, but that they'd be less likely to help in the way the petitioner wants to be helped because they figure they know better than she does. 4.Loyalty is very situational. Always. But I think that a noblewoman's household would actually very likely be less likely to follow her into a violent confrontation than they would a nobleman. Help her, yes. Follow her, no. For routine interactions you don't need loyalty rolls. You just need not to short them on their pay. |
05-25-2023, 09:17 PM | #4 |
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
One thing I would suggest is that Second-class Citizen in societies like Victorian Britain might be balance fluffwise by something like Social Regard: Venerable. Men are generally expected to be 'nice' to women, tipping hats and opening doors, but aren't expected to treat them with the same sort of respect a man of the same social status would get. Depending on the character's specific circumstances, it might or might not add up to 0 points, so maybe a perk version of Social Regard would be more fitting.
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Warning, I have the Distractible and Imaginative quirks in real life. "The more corrupt a government, the more it legislates." -- Tacitus Five Earths, All in a Row. Updated 12/17/2022: Apocrypha: Bridges out of Time, Part I has been posted. |
05-26-2023, 11:30 AM | #5 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pioneer Valley
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
Quote:
__________________
My gaming blog: Apotheosis of the Invisible City "Call me old-fashioned, but after you're dead, I don't think you should be entitled to a Dodge any more." - my wife It's not that I don't understand what you're saying. It's that I disagree with what you're saying. |
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05-26-2023, 12:52 PM | #6 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
Quote:
"Baseline" members of the society - the people who don't operate under a stigma - define some or all of their self worth based on NOT being like you and being able to own or control people of your type. The more cynical members of the power elite maintain and gain control by inflaming popular sentiment against you. Attempt to shake up that social dynamic and baseline members of the society go crazy, especially the more authoritarian types who are looking for any excuse to enforce their dominance. If you've got a Social Stigma, forget gaining Status above a certain level (at least in your own right) and expect huge numbers of Enemies if you gain any degree of Wealth. Forget gaining social clout via the usual means - academia, business, military, politics, or religion. Forget gaining access the corridors of power to influence decision makers unless they're immediate family members and you can exert intense informal emotional or social control over them. Most people of your type are so conditioned to oppression that they don't dare rise up to support you, even if they might quietly cheer you on. Some are so badly brainwashed by the dominant culture that they actively oppose you for "rocking the boat" and potentially making things worse than they already are. They get held up by the baseline culture as being "model" members of your group. Your role in society is fixed, often at birth, any attempt to change that beyond certain parameters is doomed or subject to intense struggle. Unless you're a hero, your only hope to shed your stigma is to become a refugee. That means abandoning your entire culture, and possibly your native language and cultural familiarity, on the chance that you won't be as badly oppressed for being an immigrant or refugee in your new location. Struggling hard against oppression is the stuff that heroes are made of, and Social Stigma can be a defining disadvantage in some sorts of games. After all, Gandhi and MLK would just be modestly important early- to mid-20th century political figures except for the color of their skin and the circumstances of their birth. Some heroic figures are doomed to die tragically or fail in their crusade for social justice, see Medgar Evers or Malala Yousafzai. |
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05-26-2023, 02:24 PM | #7 | |
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
Quote:
__________________
Warning, I have the Distractible and Imaginative quirks in real life. "The more corrupt a government, the more it legislates." -- Tacitus Five Earths, All in a Row. Updated 12/17/2022: Apocrypha: Bridges out of Time, Part I has been posted. |
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05-26-2023, 08:43 PM | #8 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pioneer Valley
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
And possibly the reason why it does is that your long (and accurate) laundry list of what befalls people with Social Stigma in most cultures is something the great majority of gamers will not tolerate. PCs are accustomed to be the swaggering masters of the earth, beholden to no one, answering to no one, condescended to by no one. They don't, as a rule, tolerate being sent around to the servants' entrance, told that "their kind" isn't served here, or reflexively rejected for rank or positions of honor.
__________________
My gaming blog: Apotheosis of the Invisible City "Call me old-fashioned, but after you're dead, I don't think you should be entitled to a Dodge any more." - my wife It's not that I don't understand what you're saying. It's that I disagree with what you're saying. |
05-26-2023, 08:54 PM | #9 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
It's not a perk. It's just "social stigma is more complicated than a single number".
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05-26-2023, 10:45 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Re: Social Stigma (Second-Class Citizen)—a poor simulation of historical sexism?
Quote:
__________________
Warning, I have the Distractible and Imaginative quirks in real life. "The more corrupt a government, the more it legislates." -- Tacitus Five Earths, All in a Row. Updated 12/17/2022: Apocrypha: Bridges out of Time, Part I has been posted. |
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