New Reality Seeds

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The French monarch in the early 1830s thought the Reform Bill of 1832 was a threat to his throne. He was, in fact, right about that. The French would join an anti-British alliance.

So I guess in this timeline the July Monarchy was averted?

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by TGLS

So I guess in this timeline the July Monarchy was averted?

No, but both the French kings had similar views of Britain. Either way, in this setting France is part of the continental alliance against Britain.

[TGLS]

I don't know. The constitutional governments of Spain, Portugal and France may very well fear the more aggressive Eastern powers and rally around the British, supported by Lord Palmerston.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by TGLS

I don't know. The constitutional governments of Spain, Portugal and France may very well fear the more aggressive Eastern powers and rally around the British, supported by Lord Palmerston.

The Spanish king proudly refuted the Spanish constitution with the joyous support of the Spanish Catholic Church. So they might not support British constitutionalism.

[TGLS]

Until 1833, when the Bourbons sided with the Liberals for support against the Carlists.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Until 1833, when the Bourbons sided with the Liberals for support against the Carlists.

And through the whole period supported the Holy Alliance. Look, I said this was an alternate history were the Holy Alliance had its act together and could actually do what they often said they wanted to do. Like a world were the Nazis could actually win WWII this world is radically different than our own.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

If the Holy Alliance is going to seriously throw down with Britain they're going to need to get France on-side and probably make a technological breakthrough in naval warfare that renders Britain's navy obsolete so that that Britain's edge in numbers of hulls and experienced crew can be counterbalanced.

The aesthetic problem with this is that the Holy Alliance was, by definition, an alliance of reactionary religious conservatives. Those tend to be bad candidates for "exploits high-tech wonder-weapons to blow holes in the balance of power", especially before the 20th century. I mean, there's no law against it, it could happen somehow -- but giving your "let's go back to the good old days of the 15th century" goons strike airships and submarine freighters is kind of mixing your symbols.

Originally Posted by Astromancer

An alliance of Russia, Austria, Prussia, Spain, and France, would have had the naval resources to challenge the Royal Navy.

So the basic concept here is "Britain completely bollixes up its core 19th century foreign policy, and faces the exact nightmare that it spend all those decades working to block in reality". Which is fair enough.

Personally, I'd incline to make this version of the Holy Alliance a very cynical Prussian scheme. Of the three, they were the dynamic, efficient, progressive-according-to-their-own-lights mob; if they bafflegabbed the other two into providing them with cannon fodder, resources, and a secure eastern border, under a scrim of pseudo-religious doubletalk, they could be trouble. The diplomatic solution would then consist of the British jumping up and down and yelling "You're being scammed!" at the Russians and Austrians.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

The aesthetic problem with this is that the Holy Alliance was, by definition, an alliance of reactionary religious conservatives. Those tend to be bad candidates for "exploits high-tech wonder-weapons to blow holes in the balance of power", especially before the 20th century. I mean, there's no law against it, it could happen somehow -- but giving your "let's go back to the good old days of the 15th century" goons strike airships and submarine freighters is kind of mixing your symbols.


So the basic concept here is "Britain completely bollixes up its core 19th century foreign policy, and faces the exact nightmare that it spend all those decades working to block in reality". Which is fair enough.

Personally, I'd incline to make this version of the Holy Alliance a very cynical Prussian scheme. Of the three, they were the dynamic, efficient, progressive-according-to-their-own-lights mob; if they bafflegabbed the other two into providing them with cannon fodder, resources, and a secure eastern border, under a scrim of pseudo-religious doubletalk, they could be trouble. The diplomatic solution would then consist of the British jumping up and down and yelling "You're being scammed!" at the Russians and Austrians.

Agreed, the Holy Alliance is a pact of reactionaries, with a possible exception of Prussia. Yes, this senario assumes that the bitter lessons learned durring the War of the American Revolution are totally forgotten. It isn't a realistic senario on several levels. The main exception being the question of how to invade Britain in the period between the fall of Napoleon and the coronation of Victoria. It would have taken an alliance of the whole of Europe to pull it off.

I like your idea about Prussia pulling the strings. If we have Centrum deluded into thinking they're pulling Prussia's strings, it could add layers of confusion to the game.

[Apollonian]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Agreed, the Holy Alliance is a pact of reactionaries, with a possible exception of Prussia. Yes, this senario assumes that the bitter lessons learned durring the War of the American Revolution are totally forgotten. It isn't a realistic senario on several levels. The main exception being the question of how to invade Britain in the period between the fall of Napoleon and the coronation of Victoria. It would have taken an alliance of the whole of Europe to pull it off.

I like your idea about Prussia pulling the strings. If we have Centrum deluded into thinking they're pulling Prussia's strings, it could add layers of confusion to the game.

If you can somehow have Britain occupy France - which is serious space bat territory - you then have a place that can be invaded and a land war that the Holy Alliance can fight. The problem here is that (as countless playthroughs of Europa Universalis have taught me) Britain is a maritime power, the Holy Alliance is composed of land powers, and trying to fight on the other guy's turf is a losing strategy. And everyone knows it! Somehow, you have to get the Holy Alliance a maritime power or make Britain need to fight a land war.

Making the Alliance a maritime power is quite tricky, especially as long as the British hold Gibraltar. So... ok, going into space bat territory... Britain and France somehow come to an accord and a close alliance. This probably has to happen directly as a result of the Napoleonic wars, so let's say that instead of fully restoring the Bourbons, the French adopt a system similar to the British, with parliament balancing a fairly strong (and perhaps less incompetent) monarch. Maybe Napoleon II? This, of course, incenses the Holy Alliance, and threatens Spain - which (again through Space Bat influence) actually gets its naval act together. So now the Holy Alliance of Russia, Prussia, Austria, and Spain face off against the somewhat democratic Anglo-French Alliance in a cold war that's likely to go hot soonish. Everyone's still exhausted from the Napoleonic Wars - it's only been twenty years - but tensions are rising. Meanwhile, the USA is happily trading with one and all, and the Spanish American colonies are getting restive.

Downside, aside from all the Space Bat stuff, is that it looks an awful lot like WWI verson 0.5. Or maybe that's an up side.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

Making the Alliance a maritime power is quite tricky, especially as long as the British hold Gibraltar.

The reason for this is simple, but not always obvious. Land powers have to maintain large armies, to deter invasion. That means they can't afford large fleets in addition to their armies.

The British historically spent nearly all their military budget on their navy. The large British armies of WWI and WWII were quite unusual. The British calculation was that a power would have to dominate all of Europe to be able to afford a large enough fleet to beat the Royal Navy. So they made sure that nobody ever dominated all of Europe, and treated preventing that as a matter of national survival.

The good feature of Gibraltar is that it lets you impede Mediterranean fleets (half of Spain, half of France, Italy, Austria. Turkey, Russian Black Sea fleet) from joining forces with Atlantic fleets ((half of Spain, half of France, Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, Russian Baltic and Northern fleets).