GURPS Supers Gameplay Balance

[Eisbaer Blitzkrieg]

Got a question for anyone running a Supers game or if you can just offer some advice.

I've been running a Supers game for a bit and I usually make villains that are higher in point level, but fewer in number, to the heroes so they still present a challenge. One such villain had ultratech and the knowledge/skill to use it.

As such he presented a significant problem to my supers as they were barely able to resist the damage he could deal and couldn't get past his armor. The only thing that ended up working was pure luck. One hero with guns got a critical hit with triple damage to the head. That did it. However it was a gun that did it, and as most of the cronies that they have been facing also had automatic weapons they've fallen into this slump of gun > super power.

It seems that any minion with an automatic weapon or flamethrower can decimate a super hero while a super with 6d damage will have a hard time getting past simple modern military armor.

tl;dr: How do you strike a good balance between super powers and guns?

Also, as a side question, can anyone suggest an advantage that states a character has a small army in their employ? Ally Group caps at 100 people.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Eisbaer Blitzkrieg

Got a question for anyone running a Supers game or if you can just offer some advice.

I've been running a Supers game for a bit and I usually make villains that are higher in point level, but fewer in number, to the heroes so they still present a challenge. One such villain had ultratech and the knowledge/skill to use it.

As such he presented a significant problem to my supers as they were barely able to resist the damage he could deal and couldn't get past his armor. The only thing that ended up working was pure luck. One hero with guns got a critical hit with triple damage to the head. That did it. However it was a gun that did it, and as most of the cronies that they have been facing also had automatic weapons they've fallen into this slump of gun > super power.

It seems that any minion with an automatic weapon or flamethrower can decimate a super hero while a super with 6d damage will have a hard time getting past simple modern military armor.

tl;dr: How do you strike a good balance between super powers and guns?

Also, as a side question, can anyone suggest an advantage that states a character has a small army in their employ? Ally Group caps at 100 people.

You don't balance opponents for your PCs on the basis of point totals, but on actual damage dice and armor values and the like. Look at the discussion of power levels and scales in GURPS Supers (latest edition).

Basically, a 6d Innate Attack isn't a whole lot of damage if normal thugs can lay their hands on 7d and up rifles and similar guns, and an innate DR 20 doesn't protect you much more than some modern armor.

What you wanted to do at the point of character design was ensure that the PCs had some means of surviving in a fight against normal thugs armed with whatever level of weaponry you deemed likely to be commonly available, whether that meant handguns or assault weapons. That means of survival could be DR of some type, IT:DR or high HP, a very high Dodge, Insubstantiality, Invisibility, Ridiculous or Super Luck, Regeneration, what have you - whatever fit the character concept and meant that that character wasn't likely to go down quickly the first time they tried to tackle some street crime. If street criminals tend to wear body armor, you also want each PC to have some means of still hurting them.

All is not lost, though, even if all the PCs are already written up. There are tactics they can use to do better against foes equipped with conventional weaponry and armor.

Dealing with guns: First of all, remember to always dodge, even if you have some DR, if there's any chance that your protection is not enough to block all damage. Find cover, use All-Out Defense or Feverish Defense if the Dodge score is not good enough. If you're a superstrong brick, pick up something like a car and use it as moveable Cover until close enough to chuck it at someone. If you've got a movement power, zoom through the battlefield at high speed and make the gunmen eat hefty Speed/Range penalties to hit you. If you're quite accurate with a ranged attack, shoot at weapons to destroy or disarm them first. If you have no ranged attacks, close to hand-to-hand combat distance ASAP so you can disarm, use parries as well as dodges against gunfire (yes, this is an option in Basic), or just plain knock the guy out. Use stealth powers to approach and attack from ambush, never giving them a chance to fire. Mix and match with team tactics depending on the composition of your superteam.

Dealing with body armor: Most body armor doesn't protect the entire body; as a super, you should have a good enough skill with some attack to take the penalty for targeting an unprotected area. Failing that, body armor doesn't protect as well against area attacks and explosions that do whole body damage, or frequently against falls, whether induced by throws or knockback. Flexible armor is ineffective against joint locks and similar damaging or restraining techniques. Even if somebody is protected by high DR, rigid, sealed body armor out of Ultratech, that doesn't necessarily protect them from being grappled and held by somebody stronger, or perhaps tossed off a roof or flown to a great height and then dropped (once any jetpacks have been disabled, of course). Nor does it protect against powers and abilities that ignore armor in the first place, like Mind Control or many Maledictions.

Most of this will help you against street criminals with assault weapons and maybe kevlar vests or flak jackets. The fact remains that if you have low-level supers with Innate Attacks or punches in the 6-10d range and DR south of maybe 30, and you throw them up against an Ultratech madman in a TL9 or 10 battlesuit with DR better than 100 and nasty weapons to match, of course they'll be seriously outmatched.

Out of curiousity, maybe you could share the point basis for character creation in your campaign, and the top 5-6 PC attacks and defenses (both DR and Active Defenses).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Eisbaer Blitzkrieg

tl;dr: How do you strike a good balance between super powers and guns?

You set the standard power level of powers to make guns less effective. I suggest innate attacks in the 100+ point range for a TL 8 game.

[Eisbaer Blitzkrieg]

vitruvian, thanks so much for your response, it gave me a lot I can share with the characters. Also, some more idea with how the weapons should be balanced. I've had this problem with my Black Ops games as well, the PCs automatic weapons just tearing my beasties to shreds with their 7d damage. It made me blink due to most handguns, firing the same or larger caliber shells, doing ~3d. Odd, but errata showed no correction and I just didn't want to rewrite the whole damage table.

As for the characters, I started them with 500pts. At the level they're about 525. Highest combat character has a energy wall attack with 12d, so he's a bit of the heavy hitter, but that's not his character type.

Another with super-dexterity and dodge, so most of the time he's fine... but if he fails his chambara dodge, which has happened twice, it can get really ugly.
He only attacks with knives and the called-shot has been his friend but I'm trying to figure out a way to up the damage on them.

Third super has element-based attacks, and after rereading the rules on flame weapons, I think she has finally decided she loves her fireball attack. Some of this has been fixed as we reread the rules, like the problem we had with range (misunderstood, thought it said range was hexes=power level. Oops).

Lastly we have our super who is a super-villain in training. She's super-intelligent, charismatic, has a small army at her disposal... and has a goal of conquering the world. So far her charm has mislead the other heroes enough that they're not questioning her intentions, so that works out. Besides her intelligence and minions, however, she really doesn't have a super hero, so guns is her answer, but not heavy ones as she's not a tank.


That's the run down. I took what you wrote to heart and it all makes sense. I just feel like I'm doing something wrong if I have to dumb down the rules, or if I make a 700pt villain that a handful of 500pt heroes can't take down. However, that may be just what I have to do. Everyone gets dodges, of course, and the minions very rarely cause a problem... it's just the damn villains. Heh.

[Canology]

Originally Posted by Eisbaer Blitzkrieg

I've had this problem with my Black Ops games as well, the PCs automatic weapons just tearing my beasties to shreds with their 7d damage. It made me blink due to most handguns, firing the same or larger caliber shells, doing ~3d. Odd, but errata showed no correction and I just didn't want to rewrite the whole damage table.

Just a quick reality note to explain this. :)

Most rifles rounds have substantially more gunpowder even if they are the same caliber as a handgun and therefore propel the round at a much higher velocity.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Canology

Just a quick reality note to explain this. :)

Most rifles rounds have substantially more gunpowder even if they are the same caliber as a handgun and therefore propel the round at a much higher velocity.

Yeah. For example, the M-16 fires a .22 caliber round (thereabouts), but it obviously inflicts far more damage than a .22 Long Rifle, because the latter is basically a rimfire, while the former has a full, rifle-length cartridge behind it.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Yeah. For example, the M-16 fires a .22 caliber round (thereabouts), but it obviously inflicts far more damage than a .22 Long Rifle, because the latter is basically a rimfire, while the former has a full, rifle-length cartridge behind it.

There is also the factor that even if you have the same weight of propellant, the energy that goes into the bullet is a function of the factor of expansion of the gases. A longer barrel gives more room for expansion.

Bill Stoddard

[Eisbaer Blitzkrieg]

Ah, thanks, should have known all that. However the doubling of damage and increased rate of fire was... well, I wasn't expecting it. :)

[Crakkerjakk]

Rifles kill people. Pistols poke holes in them till they bleed to death. On average.

[Ragitsu]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Rifles kill people. Pistols poke holes in them till they bleed to death. On average.

Hm. On the flipside, .50 BMG severely injures people and .22LR kills them instantly.

That's where marksmanship comes into play, unless you pray and spray.