heroic archer + extra attack 1

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

No, Double Shot is firing two arrows at once from one bow.

Dual-Weapon Attack would be somehow being able to fire two bows at once.

If you have four arms, I'll allow it. Or for you to have a bow, a sword, and a shield equipped all at once.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Huh. That's not what Kromm says:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...57&postcount=3
and
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...03&postcount=4

This just makes me throw up my hands in frustration. How the hell are players supposed to divine when rules apply and when not in this crazy system?

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

This just makes me throw up my hands in frustration. How the hell are players supposed to divine when rules apply and when not in this crazy system?

That's why SJG are pioneering cloning technology, so that we all can have our own Kromm at home to ask. :o)

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

No, Double Shot is firing two arrows at once from one bow.

Dual-Weapon Attack would be somehow being able to fire two bows at once.

Actually, Martial Arts p. 83 states: "DWA (Bow) lets you shoot two arrows at once from a bow, possibly at different targets! Heroic Archer halves the default penalty to -2. Readying a second arrow requires an extra Ready or use of Multiple Fast-Draw (p. 103)."

So, yes, Dual-Weapon Attack (Bow) is what you're calling Double Shot. :)

[Boge]

Originally Posted by Boge

I'm assuming "double shot" means Dual Weapon Attack here?

What would be the penalties for a heroic archer with weapon mastery to shoot two arrows in one turn, meaning fast draw, ready, and shoot both arrows all in one turn? What would be the penalty for shooting at two different targets?

I ask this question again.

Can one do Dual Weapon Attack Bow and Quick Shooting in one turn? If so, what would the roll sequence be?

Assuming one could, what is the penalty for attacking at two separate targets?

Lastly, could one do a "rapid strike" (basically quit shooting twice in one turn) with an All Out Attack Double?

I'm just curious as to how crazy an archer can get within the rules of the books.


Lastly, I just started a new campaign with a friend of mine and have shown him these rules. He doesn't like the idea of doing Quick Shooting without Heroic Archer, not even with Weapon Mastery. What can I say to him to convince him it's a fair play seeing as how the penalties for doing so help balance it out?

[Dammann]

Roll the dice and demonstrate how big -6 to skill really is. Use a sample character with Bow-15, another with Bow-20, another with Bow 12. He'll see soon that the penalty is significant, especially with lower base skill.

[Boge]

Still looking for a direct answer to my question above. Thanks.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Boge

I ask this question again.

This is many many question, not just one :)

Originally Posted by Boge

Can one do Dual Weapon Attack Bow and Quick Shooting in one turn? If so, what would the roll sequence be?

Yes, you can.

Roll vs Fast Draw at a -4 penalty (halved to -2 if you have either Heroic Archer or Weapon Master, halved again to -1 if you have both). Note that there are posture penalties to fast draw if you're in a funny position, Martial Arts page 103.

IF you succeed, you are now holding two arrows as a free action. If you fail, you end your turn having performed a Ready action instead of an Attack. If you crit fail, everything goes pear-shaped.

Now you roll to fast-ready your bow. This is at Bow skill at -6 (-3 if you have either advantage, -1 if you have both). If you took All Out Attack Determined, you get a +1 to this roll.

If you succeed, you have now fast-readied your two arrows into your drawn bow as a free action. So you still haven't actually performed an action and you've gone from unready-everything to two arrows.
If you fail, you end your turn having performed a Ready action instead of an Attack. Again, crit failure = pear shaped.

Now you attack, at -6 for Rapid Strike (-3 if you have either advantage, -1 if you have both) and a further -4 for Dual Weapon Attack (-2 if you have Weapon Master). If you took All Out Attack Determined, you get a +1 to this roll. THIS is your action, which completes the Attack Maneuver (or All Out Attack Determined). You may take your Step as normal at any point in this sequence.

If you are a Heroic Archer (and only a Heroic Archer, Weapon Master doesn't help here), you may do this as part of a Move and Attack instead of a regular Attack.

Originally Posted by Boge

Assuming one could, what is the penalty for attacking at two separate targets?

I can't find info on this point.

Originally Posted by Boge

Lastly, could one do a "rapid strike" (basically quit shooting twice in one turn) with an All Out Attack Double?

No. Quick Shooting with All Out Attack requires that you take the Determined option for +1 to hit, not the Double option, see Martial Arts page 119.

Originally Posted by Boge

I'm just curious as to how crazy an archer can get within the rules of the books.

Preeeety crazy.
A Heroic Archer in melee combat with Weapon Master and fully bought-off Dual Weapon Attack (Bow) technique can run around at full Move spraying two arrows a turn at a total of -1 to hit. You don't get your ACC bonus, but you don't get the huge Bulk penalty either. Note that Move And Attack restricts your defense options, so don't get too cocky. Use your Move to stay out of reach of the enemy.

BUT ALSO. This only works if they keep making those Fast Draw rolls and fast ready rolls. Otherwise they get stopped dead in their tracks as their Move And Attack suddenly turns into a Ready. This can leave you in a very tricky position, suddenly surrounded by enemies. The dice eventually do screw you over.

In a Dungeon Fantasy game, this also isn't all that much damage so high DR foes often find you funny, and Impaling really doesn't impress all kinds of foes (plant monsters, the undead, golems, slimes, many demons, ghosts...)

So this really takes an investment of 30 points of advantages, plus 8-16 points in Fast Draw (remember you need more than 16 to eat the penalties), plus as many points as you can throw at your Bow skill. You can target chinks in armor to halve DR and make the most of your minimal damage, but that takes even more points for even more Bow skill.

And you should really invest a further 15 points in Luck (if not more!) because this trick requires so many dice rolls that it will go horribly wrong eventually. This is the voice of experience talking.

Originally Posted by Boge

Lastly, I just started a new campaign with a friend of mine and have shown him these rules. He doesn't like the idea of doing Quick Shooting without Heroic Archer, not even with Weapon Mastery. What can I say to him to convince him it's a fair play seeing as how the penalties for doing so help balance it out?

Originally Posted by Dammann

Roll the dice and demonstrate how big -6 to skill really is. Use a sample character with Bow-15, another with Bow-20, another with Bow 12. He'll see soon that the penalty is significant, especially with lower base skill.

Originally Posted by Boge

Still looking for a direct answer to my question above. Thanks.

You asked a lot of questions above. Dammann addressed the last one :)

However, the GM is perfectly allowed to restrict the Quick Shooting trick to Heroic Archers only. I would assume he's still allowing Weapon Master to give cumulative benefits.

Between the two advantages, I suggest buying Heroic Archer first - the ACC bonus for free when standing still and the effective plus six bonus to Move and Attack is awesome, and the rapid fire is damned good.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I can't find info on this point. (Multiple Targets)

Both Rapid Strike and Dual-Weapon Attack allow some variant of multiple targets at no additional penalty. I recall that it was somewhat of a decision to make Rapid Strike count for shooting at two locations on the same target, because that should be easier than one location on two targets, which was assumed.

Dual-Weapon Attack (melee version) allows attacking two adjacent targets as well.

I'd say that there's no penalty for doing this at two targets (in fact, it would probably be harder to put arrows close together on one target than two), but that since you can only Aim at one target at once without a bunch of other advantages, and most of the things you do here aren't about precision fire anyway, the big deal about RS/DWA here is that (a) it's already pretty heavily penalized unless you've bought off tons of stuff (which if you're doing this, you have; if you haven't, you should), (b) the lack of available bonuses is its own issue.

So while as GM I might restrict the targets to, say, within a 30-degree cone, that's just me. Otherwise, I'd say "have at it."

[Kalzazz]

For the sake of sanity, I heartily suggest allowing perks / techniques to deal with the fast draw and fast ready rolls . . . . sooooo many rolls

Also cutting and AP arrows are your friends, as AP can at least allow paper cuts to armored foes, and cutting allows you to help vs golems / undead etc

Cornucopia quivers are your friend! You need two for each arrow type