Can't decide on Gurps 4e or Hero 6e

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by whswhs

IUnless you're punched by the Hulk, or caught in a large explosion, you're not likely to take enough damage in a single attack to get you to fully negative HP.

But if there are full-power firearms, but no armour in play, it's quite possible. The last character I saw get killed went that way. He took a 7d rifle round which took him to just past fully negative. He made that survival roll, but was unfortunately (a) Impulsive and (b) had the weapon with the best chance of damaging the opponent (who did have armour). So he raised his head and took an Aim, and got shot again. That left him mortally wounded and unconscious - but he was also the only healer and died on us.

The point of this anecdote is that unless Hero has changed since 4th Edition, which was the last I played, it's easier for a player who's trying to be heroic to get killed by guns in GURPS. In Hero, you expect people will usually run out of Stun and fall over after being shot before they run out of Body. in GURPS, if you make the HT rolls, you can keep going until you are definitely dead. You have to learn to accept that if you're wounded severely, keeping going can be a bad idea.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Unless you're punched by the Hulk, or caught in a large explosion, you're not likely to take enough damage in a single attack to get you to fully negative HP.

Unless you're dealing with autofire, or someone is aiming for the vitals or skull with a reasonably powerful weapon. Or both. For someone with 20 hp, it takes about 9d to the skull or 12d to the vitals to instantly drop them to -5xHP. Ultratech energy weapons are particularly notorious for this.

Similar things apply in Hero, but because of how damage and and defenses scale, it's somewhat less likely.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Damurack

How far down into details can I strip the GURPS mechanic to create something based on an idea? Will there be more options doing things like that with GURPS or Hero.

Neither system is flat-out better than the other in this regard. In my experience and opinion (and that's all it is!): If the idea amounts to plausible training, social background, technology, or biology – or subtle supernatural gifts – then GURPS will offer you more options and give you an end product that's truer to the original concept. If the idea is tied up in larger-than-life training or gadgetry, or wild-and-crazy exotic inborn abilities, then Hero paints a better picture out of the box. Each game can hit the other's strengths, but the workload is a little higher.

Originally Posted by Damurack

Also, if I did this, which system allows for a better balance to migrate these ideas into the system?

"Balance" is a loaded term, so asking about that is going to get you dozens of conflicting responses. Once again in my view only:

Both game systems offer decent guidelines for bringing in ideas, but I believe that Hero's are better for balancing combat potential while GURPS' are superior when it comes to weighing the ramifications for the campaign's social situation, technology level, and similar "big picture" parameters. You decide which of those is more important to "balance." Personally, I don't care much about combat effectiveness, because as the GM I can always make opponents tougher or easier, and I never run adventures where everything hinges on the outcome of a fight . . . so after years of playing Hero, I switched to GURPS. But I can tell you right now that a lot of gamers think Hero is better because you can easily bring in characters from a dozen unrelated fictional universes and have them fight death battles.

[Damurack]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I would say that if the character has powers it is easier for them to increase in Hero as compared to Gurps. If the character is based around skills it might be easer to grow in Gurps.

In both HERO and Gurps typical player-characters will start out with better attributes than the "average" member of their species. You don't have to start out as a simple peasant (1st level) but you won't (usually) grow into a godlike being (20th level) as a normal thing.

I'm going to have a strict limit on powers, so skill base will probably be the way I go.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

On the other hand/tentacle the HERO character might not take as many minuses as a Gurps guy does in a typical sort of combat. If anything the HERO combat might have fewer calculations and die rolls in it than the Gurps fight.

If you're going to focus on non-combat situations you can get a lot more detail in Gurps than HERO. You'd get a greater spread in skill levels almost certainly.

There will definitely be a moderate use of non combat skill use. If I can simplify the dice roll system to make it smooth and easily understandable for everyone, then I will be happy.

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Are you planning to play any other campaigns? Do you want a system that you can easily adapt to other campaigns/settings/genres as time goes on?

If I can get an easily ready system that everyone can understand, then I will be using it for other genres, yes. Superheroes is a popular genre around my group.

Originally Posted by whswhs

I've run a lot of GURPS and I've rarely seen combat lead to character death. An important reason is that in a GURPS combat, a character can be incapacitated in lots of ways that fall short of death.

Bill Stoddard

That's good to know, If I can keep my players alive, they may have more interest in remaining in the game.

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

I'm a Hero partisan, so I'm going to recommend Hero over GURPS. But just slightly. :) When GURPS went to 4e it was shortly after Hero went to 5e, so I kind of made a decision at that point to follow Hero's path. But I go as far back as Man To Man, sent in my "What do you want to see?" survey, and got on the Roleplayer mailing list. Still got my #1 handy, I think, though it's worse for wear over the years.

GURPS and Hero do a lot of things very similarly. They're both point-based systems with skills, powers, and disadvantages. Both use 3d6, roll low against a target number, for task and combat resolution.

I'll agree with what most folks have said about GURPS being more optimized from its initial design stages for non-super, somewhat realistic adventuring and Hero being more optimized for cinematic, supers-style stuff, but I'll also note that when I was a regular GURPS player I never had any trouble getting it to do cinematic supers-style with the right switches thrown. Same for Hero and gritty realistic type stuff.

Given your fourth criterion (few to no reduced abilities from damage) I'd slightly recommend Hero over GURPS, but only slightly. They're both fine, sturdy, time-tested systems. If someone were to invite me to a GURPS campaign, I'd gladly play, though I'd need some time to get up to speed with current rules and ways of doing things.

I'm glad to get any information from players on Hero, (I've actually gotten more info about Hero on this forum then the Hero Forum ironically). I'm still in the debate between systems, and from what I have gathered so far, favor is leaning more towards GURPS, however, I am a huge fan of development and it seems like I can develop more freely in Hero. I am still waiting on more response on other forums, which has been slim compared to this. But I'm glad to get info from Hero fans, no matter which site it is on. :)

[Damurack]

Originally Posted by johndallman

The point of this anecdote is that unless Hero has changed since 4th Edition, which was the last I played, it's easier for a player who's trying to be heroic to get killed by guns in GURPS. In Hero, you expect people will usually run out of Stun and fall over after being shot before they run out of Body. in GURPS, if you make the HT rolls, you can keep going until you are definitely dead. You have to learn to accept that if you're wounded severely, keeping going can be a bad idea.

It seems to be the consensus that Hero = any 80's action movie where the star takes an unbelievable beating and keeps on going, and GURPS = Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight, where he says it's merely a flesh wound but is going no where because he lost his arms and legs.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Neither system is flat-out better than the other in this regard. In my experience and opinion (and that's all it is!): If the idea amounts to plausible training, social background, technology, or biology – or subtle supernatural gifts – then GURPS will offer you more options and give you an end product that's truer to the original concept. If the idea is tied up in larger-than-life training or gadgetry, or wild-and-crazy exotic inborn abilities, then Hero paints a better picture out of the box. Each game can hit the other's strengths, but the workload is a little higher.

"Balance" is a loaded term, so asking about that is going to get you dozens of conflicting responses. Once again in my view only:

Both game systems offer decent guidelines for bringing in ideas, but I believe that Hero's are better for balancing combat potential while GURPS' are superior when it comes to weighing the ramifications for the campaign's social situation, technology level, and similar "big picture" parameters. You decide which of those is more important to "balance." Personally, I don't care much about combat effectiveness, because as the GM I can always make opponents tougher or easier, and I never run adventures where everything hinges on the outcome of a fight . . . so after years of playing Hero, I switched to GURPS. But I can tell you right now that a lot of gamers think Hero is better because you can easily bring in characters from a dozen unrelated fictional universes and have them fight death battles.

Here is a 'hypothetical situation'. Say I needed to create a piece of equipment (not for combat use, but can be used in combat if needed skill/combat) that doesn't have a real life comparison to base off of. Which system would work easier? and also, since it doesn't have a comparison there wouldn't be a skill that fits right, which system would be easier to create a skill from scratch?

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Damurack

Here is a 'hypothetical situation'. Say I needed to create a piece of equipment (not for combat use, but can be used in combat if needed skill/combat) that doesn't have a real life comparison to base off of. Which system would work easier? and also, since it doesn't have a comparison there wouldn't be a skill that fits right, which system would be easier to create a skill from scratch?

Could you give us an example? I'm sure several people here would be willing to come up with stats, as an example of how to do it in GURPS. If you can describe the effects, it's usually pretty easy to translate to mechanics.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Damurack

There will definitely be a moderate use of non combat skill use. If I can simplify the dice roll system to make it smooth and easily understandable for everyone, then I will be happy.

Well, the two systems have the same basic skill mechanic: roll 3d6 and get a total under your skill level.

GURPS has more detail in its critical success and failure mechanics: I find that players are generally quite keen to learn about critical successes. GURPS has big lists of task difficulty modifiers, but using these is definitely optional; I generally eyeball modifiers rather than looking things up.

The combat modifiers are on a different scale and can't be read across between the systems, because Hero combines attack and defence into the OCV vs. DCV calculation, whereas GURPS has you roll at full skill, plus or minus modifiers, and then has a separate defence roll. Hero doesn't primarily use skills for combat, while GURPS does.

[Damurack]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Could you give us an example? I'm sure several people here would be willing to come up with stats, as an example of how to do it in GURPS. If you can describe the effects, it's usually pretty easy to translate to mechanics.

Let's say I want to make a molecular transporter (I'm not saying this hasn't been made for in game, but let's say it hasn't) There are no skills in the book for it's use, so I have to make my own. It also may be used in a combat situation to tear apart beings on a molecular state. How would I create saves, or damage in this case?

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Damurack

If I can get an easily ready system that everyone can understand, then I will be using it for other genres, yes. Superheroes is a popular genre around my group.

In that case, while I prefer GURPS for anything I'm willing to use either for, I'll heartily vote for Hero. Going from heroic to supers in Hero is a much easier transition. Some people on here will advocate gurps for super but It's a lot more work and Hero will emulate typical comics much more easily.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Damurack

Let's say I want to make a molecular transporter (I'm not saying this hasn't been made for in game, but let's say it hasn't) There are no skills in the book for it's use, so I have to make my own. It also may be used in a combat situation to tear apart beings on a molecular state. How would I create saves, or damage in this case?

Both GURPS and Hero have options for custom skills, though in GURPS it's probably a specialization of some other skill, such as electronics operation. For tearing things apart, in either system you just decide how much damage it ought to do, possibly comparing to similar tools.