Can't decide on Gurps 4e or Hero 6e

[Damurack]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

I think it boils down to what areas of work you feel more or less comfortable with. It also depends on what style of game you want. In either system, you'll have prep work to do.

As I said before, I am planning on doing alot of work on this project. From what I am seeing so far, GURPS has alot to offer which I like, some that doesn't seem to fit my needs.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

HERO tends to start with a cinematic base, but can, with work, be made to run more gritty... though still likely falling shy of how gritty GURPS can be.

I am wanting a semi-gritty game, (If it were in the DC universe, it would be in the Green Arrow comic, or the Marvel universe, It would be a Guardian of the Galazy type of story. Where the main characters are no where near the point of being the top of the food chain, but can work their way around it.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Although, once you know the battle system, everything does become organic. To compare, a game like MERP or D&D let's you get into combat with little learning required, but takes far longer to actually internalize everything. I don't know enough about HERO, but I've heard it's a weird halfway point (where it's somewhat complicated and never gets simple).

As a person who has played D&D(AD&D to 4E'The MMO of tabletop RPGs', except never played 3.5), I know exactly what you mean about the learning curve. (Haven't heard of MERP though). I have also heard about the overwhelming amount of math involved in Hero

Originally Posted by Anthony

There are 'heroic' vs 'superheroic' options for how gear works, you don't necessarily have to buy items with points, and there are some resources with tech items prestatted, but Hero does tend towards focusing on points and looking at cash after the fact.

I am wanting the gear to actually have a use instead of being just a plot device, so if a character actually changed gear, there would be a various difference, say from a 9mm to a Railgun. Will that also work in a lower setting then Heroic?

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Well, if having the scaling of damage and combat effectiveness built into the points system matters to you then you want HERO.

From what I can see, there is a wide range of scaling just to figure out what you want to make your abilities with, since you make them from what they cause instead of a generic label for that ability. How difficult is that to pick up

Originally Posted by David Johansen

HERO's combat is more complex and has segmented movement and actions at the most basic level.

I don't know much about movement in either system, but from the looks of things, there seem to be more steps in Hero then GURPS

Originally Posted by David Johansen

HERO generally handles high powered stuff a bit better than GURPS because it has stuff like that built into the foundation where with GURPS you have to tack them on somehow.
But you can dial GURPS way down in the complexity level or way up, however you like it.

When it comes to powers, they will be sparse in this game. I haven't heard alot of good things about the GURPS setup from powers but I'm not planning on having the Infinity Gaunlet story as my setting, maybe more along the lines of Carrie, where she is th only person with powers, and they aren't all to outragous.

Originally Posted by whswhs

GURPS and Hero are both universal systems, but Hero is more optimized for representing superbeings. GURPS is more optimized for representing capable human adventurers. Either can do the other, but it takes more work.
Hero abilities tend very strongly to be priced by combat utility; abilities that have little combat relevance, such as Comeliness or Profession skills, have low cost. GURPS abilities are more evenly priced, in terms of general (including social) utility as well as combat utility.
To my personal taste, the Hero combat mechanics is a beautiful engine, but Hero character creation is actively painful. I understand that a lot of people feel differently, at least about the latter.
Bill Stoddard

Does this mean that Hero characters build more exponentially after time then GURPS? (i.e. Hero developoment makes the characters grow up and eventially outgrow the races basic abilities that they all have, wheres GURPS characters only grow from the skills theylearn, but are still to be on the same level as others from their race) The engines on both systems have plus points for me, they are very well made.

[Damurack]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Not sure what kind of "sci-fi" you're looking for, but GURPS has supplements entitled Space, Bio-Tech, Ultra-Tech, and Spaceships which have done most of the pre-game crunch work for you and/or enable you to do said crunch yourself quickly and easily.

I am creating a sci fi universe for the characters to live in and explore, we will all be working together on planet and race creation. There will be many different types of adventures we will be playing in this universe. (Think all of the Star Trek series, Dr Who, Firefly, Dune, Call of Cthulhu, some Fantasy aspects, and Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy for a blend of what we will be doing. Like i said before, a long time development.

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Basic combat can be performed over text-based media such as instant messengers and IRC via description rather than requiring maps (although a tactical combat system is included for those who want that detail).

This will be tabletop at home. This is the first real system game I will have played in a while, so I won't get the benefit of in person character play to learn, however do people still do RP over the web via e-mail,chat, or post anymore. It may help me to pick up gameplay feeling if I could get in on a game like this.

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

The one drawback inherent to both systems is that character generation is often time-consuming.

Thankfully, I don't mind this. I will be doing the gming, and building all of the characters myself with the players seperately so we can get the best fit for everyone.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Despite being the custodian of GURPS for 20 years – and one of the designers of GURPS Fourth Edition – I will not try to hard-sell you on GURPS over Hero.

First off, thank you for he work you have put in on this system. This is a vast amount of work (I currently am working on developing a universal board game system and it has been a ton of work, so there s no way I could even fathom the ammount of you time went into this. Without your group, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The differences?
GURPS and Hero both distinguish between learned skills and innate "powers." GURPS is more skill-oriented; most activities outside of a superhero game will involve using skills and training (which might include spells, fantastic martial-arts abilities, etc.). Hero is more powers-oriented; most activities in any genre will involve using innate powers (which might also include spells, martial-arts abilities, etc.).
GURPS and Hero both offer freeform ability design. GURPS has more prefab components, so it's a little faster during character generation but not quite as flexible. Hero does more from scratch, so it's a bit more adaptable but demands more system fluency from the player.
GURPS and Hero are both point-build system. GURPS uses points as a measure of character options: the more points you have, the more you can accomplish, averaged over dozens of possible adventuring tasks . . . meaning that if you focus on just combat or for that matter just social activity, you'll be a god there and bad at everything else on the same budget as a generalist. Hero uses points more as a measure of power, particularly combat-effectiveness.
On the battlefield, the big difference between GURPS and Hero is in what's assumed vs. what has to be added. Both can handle grittily lethal conflict and larger-than-life heroics. GURPS assumes high lethality with a death spiral unless you switch on optional rules to prevent that. Hero assumes pulpy, heroic combat where it's hard to die and easy to recover unless you switch on optional rules to prevent that.
In terms of published material, GURPS balances character abilities with gear, perhaps leaning a bit more toward gear, while Hero definitely leans a lot more toward character abilities. That said, both games have scads of supplements.
Having belonged to both sets of fandom, I can't say that the culture of the two games differs that much. Hero leans slightly toward a more wargame-ish, PvP play style because its points balance combat ability well, its rules reward design fluency, and PCs can beat each other up without dying. GURPS leans slightly toward more old-school Rule Zero roleplaying because it forcefully dumps balance and design approval in the GM's hands.
Good luck!

In both GURPS books and Heros books, it is stated that they work with other games. Do you think that I would get more if I went with Gurps, that I could easily adapt abilities made in the Hero game into the Gurps ruleset?

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Seconded, and as a follow-up, you can try a place like rpg.net, where you're likely to get a fairly even set of responses about each system.

Thanks for the tip, I will do that. :)

Originally Posted by pfharlock

Here is my take on your questions. I only know GURPS, not hero, so my thoughts only apply to GURPS.
Gurps allows you to go as heavy crunch as you could possibly want or need.
Unfortunately this means that to achieve what you are after here, you'll have to ignore allot of the "optional" rules. I've found that this can be hard for new players to wrap their heads around (because they think every rule in the book should be fair game, which is really not in the spirit of GURPS). Start with GURPS Lite which is already whittled down and cut from there if you need to.
GURPS is really good on this front. You can build anything.
This is up to the GM and the players to make happen if it is to happen. I believe this is true for any game system. GURPS will support you if this is the style you and your players prefer.
This is really the biggest sticking point of all your requirements regarding GURPS. I am a firm believer in manhandling GURPS into being whatever you want it to be. Having said that, GURPS has a bunch of rules that outline how your characters abilities degrade as you take damage. You would have to just outright ignore all of those rules. One of the posts above did a really good job of outlining the specifics of these rules.
If it were me, and I know I had a group that didn't like having their abilities degrade until they actually pass out from damage, I would just do that. It wouldn't be hard, just have a house rule that says we ignore all rules that would degrade a characters effectiveness until they pass out. Done.
Again, re-writing the system like this takes allot of trust between the players and the GM. (I would argue that that type of trust needs to exist anyway for there to be a successful game)
I tend to treat gurps as a meta game system or a grab bag if you will. I pull out the parts I want and discard the rest. The interesting part is that depending on the feel of the game I'm running, the stuff I keep/reject tends to be different depending on the feel I want.
I think most people on the forums here tend to do this to some degree or another.
On another note, and with running the risk of hijacking the thread, I'm curious to know what other people on the forum think about what I just said. Is it all heresy or does it fall in line with what you guys tend to do?

The whole reason that I am doing this, is because I want a valid system of rules to hold the players to. This will be a game for mainly family and close friends, with rotating player attendance. I have complete control over system choice (mainly due to the fact that I am the only one who has ever played a tabletop rpg not made at my home ) I like having a ruleset to fallback on in the case of the whole did not/did too argument insues. I don't mind crunch in character development I just want to be able to understand conbat well enough so that I can explain the system to my players and they understand it simply.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Damurack

In both GURPS books and Heros books, it is stated that they work with other games. Do you think that I would get more if I went with Gurps, that I could easily adapt abilities made in the Hero game into the Gurps ruleset?

I would suspect not. In both cases, there is something of a "bring your own assumptions" mentality, which makes it easy to import setting fluff into either game system. So you could easily play, for example, a Forgotten Realms or Dresden Files game in either GURPS or Hero.

But mechanics are generally not easily translated, and you usually have to de-mechanic something back to what the mechanics represent. Having the stats for an ability in one won't help you any more to get the stats in the other than just coming up with a good, clear description will.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Damurack

First off, thank you for he work you have put in on this system.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by Damurack

Do you think that I would get more if I went with Gurps, that I could easily adapt abilities made in the Hero game into the Gurps ruleset?

I'd echo the answer given already: There's essentially no idea in either game that couldn't be adapted to the other in a look-and-feel, fluff-oriented sense. However, true game-mechanical conversion – in either direction – is difficult. It saddles you with tons of work for almost no gain, and isn't worth the trouble. To put it another way, it's quicker to reduce an ability to its basic concept and rebuild it from the ground up in the other system than it is to develop and apply a set of algorithms that map abilities between systems.

When a generic system like GURPS or Hero says you can translate content for other games into its native rules set, what it means is that you can take the ideas and make them work, not that you can port the crunch across wholesale. To use an analogy, imagine seeing a red Chevrolet and deciding that you want that color on your Ford. Converting is like stripping the exterior off the Chevrolet and machining it to fit over the frame of the Ford, while porting the general idea across is like painting the Ford red. You get a red car either way, but the latter is far less work.

[Damurack]

Originally Posted by pfharlock

There can be wide variations in the amount of armor characters wear, but then you have a character that is crunchy on the outside with a warm cream filling on the inside.

This tends to reflect reality in my opinion. People who get shot in real life go down and stay down and are lucky if they don't die. That being said, we all play RPG's because there is something fantastic going on that we want to explore and experience. You can do this in GURPS, but it requires some thought. The default in GURPS is more like real life.

I think this is more of the feel that we may be going for, however I will probably need to see how the death spiral work before I'm sure about that.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Hero System is based on the 70's philosophy that you mostly need rules for simulating physical conflict (combat, and to some extent movement), while non-physical conflict is largely handled by self-playing without regard to the abilities of the role as distinct from the ability of the player. So GURPS better fits the "roleplaying type game" criterion than Hero System.

So does that mean that Hero doesn't offer a reason to use skills outside of combat?

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the last one, but I think both Hero System and GURPS can do that. Hero System probably has it built in from the get go (if I'm guessing correctly as to your meaning), whereas in GURPS you have to either actively turn on certain optional rules, or else actively put certain traits onto the player characters' sheets (and the sheet of important/named NPCs).
For the first two, the systems are largely equal. Hero System has a slightly complicated core thing where damage involves both Stun damage and Body Damage, but I'm sure it's pretty quick to learn. And is the part that might fit your players' criterion for reduced damage. Combat isn't extremely lethal, which makes sense if you know that Hero System started out as Champions, a system specifically for simulating the large non-lethal combat of four-colour super heroes.

From what I can see, it looks like GURPS was made from a human standpoint with addons to improve upon characters on more of an external sense, where Hero is made to let characters build internally to go beyond the normal capabilities of a human.

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

I'm familiar with both games, and like both of them; this, here, tells me you should go with GURPS. By default, HERO is cinematic and "actiony"; even though you can make it more "realistic", it still retains its cinematic, and combat-focused, roots.

I'm definitely seeing a lot more about GURPS that fits my needs, but I'm not ruling out Hero just yet. Thanks for the great info so far everyone.

[Damurack]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I would suspect not. In both cases, there is something of a "bring your own assumptions" mentality, which makes it easy to import setting fluff into either game system. So you could easily play, for example, a Forgotten Realms or Dresden Files game in either GURPS or Hero.

But mechanics are generally not easily translated, and you usually have to de-mechanic something back to what the mechanics represent. Having the stats for an ability in one won't help you any more to get the stats in the other than just coming up with a good, clear description will.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd echo the answer given already: There's essentially no idea in either game that couldn't be adapted to the other in a look-and-feel, fluff-oriented sense. However, true game-mechanical conversion – in either direction – is difficult. It saddles you with tons of work for almost no gain, and isn't worth the trouble. To put it another way, it's quicker to reduce an ability to its basic concept and rebuild it from the ground up in the other system than it is to develop and apply a set of algorithms that map abilities between systems.

When a generic system like GURPS or Hero says you can translate content for other games into its native rules set, what it means is that you can take the ideas and make them work, not that you can port the crunch across wholesale. To use an analogy, imagine seeing a red Chevrolet and deciding that you want that color on your Ford. Converting is like stripping the exterior off the Chevrolet and machining it to fit over the frame of the Ford, while porting the general idea across is like painting the Ford red. You get a red car either way, but the latter is far less work.

I can see what both of you mean here, and I don't want to cause myself to have extra work if I don't have to. How far down into details can I strip the GURPS mechanic to create something based on an idea? Will there be more options doing things like that with GURPS or Hero. Also, if I did this, which system allows for a better balance to migrate these ideas into the system?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Damurack

As

Does this mean that Hero characters build more exponentially after time then GURPS? (i.e. Hero developoment makes the characters grow up and eventially outgrow the races basic abilities that they all have, wheres GURPS characters only grow from the skills theylearn, but are still to be on the same level as others from their race) The engines on both systems have plus points for me, they are very well made.

I would say that if the character has powers it is easier for them to increase in Hero as compared to Gurps. If the character is based around skills it might be easer to grow in Gurps.

In both HERO and Gurps typical player-characters will start out with better attributes than the "average" member of their species. You don't have to start out as a simple peasant (1st level) but you won't (usually) grow into a godlike being (20th level) as a normal thing.

In both systems characters can improve their base stats greatly but neither will be able to exceed normal species maximums unless the GM allows it. The two systems have different relative balances. It would probably be easier to hit those species maximums in HERO as compared to Gurps. The net result in anything but simpek STY-based damage would probably be more impressive in Gurps though.

For example, in both systems Dexterity is terribly important in combat and the scale goes from 10 to 20 for normal humans. The HERO "adventtrurer(non-super)" level character might be built on a base of 75pts with up to 75 pts from taking Disadvantages while the Gurps character might be at 150pt + (perhaps) 50pts of Disads.

The HERO guy would have to spend 30pts to max out his Dex and would end up with a +4 in combat over the average person. The Gurps character would have to spend 200pts to max out his Dex but would end up with a +10 over an average person.

On the other hand/tentacle the HERO character might not take as many minuses as a Gurps guy does in a typical sort of combat. If anything the HERO combat might have fewer calculations and die rolls in it than the Gurps fight.

If you're going to focus on non-combat situations you can get a lot more detail in Gurps than HERO. You'd get a greater spread in skill levels almost certainly.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Are you planning to play any other campaigns? Do you want a system that you can easily adapt to other campaigns/settings/genres as time goes on?

I know GURPS is designed to do this and I would guess Hero is as well, but I don't have a clue how they compare in this aspect.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Damurack

I think this is more of the feel that we may be going for, however I will probably need to see how the death spiral work before I'm sure about that.

I've run a lot of GURPS and I've rarely seen combat lead to character death. An important reason is that in a GURPS combat, a character can be incapacitated in lots of ways that fall short of death. You can fail your roll to avoid stun/knockdown and end up lying on the ground semiconscious. You can take crippling injury to your weapon arm. You can fail your roll to remain conscious and be knocked out. And you make that particular roll every second after you reach 0 HP, whereas you only roll to avoid dying after you reach fully negative HP, and then only once for each time you reach another multiple of fully negative HP. Unless you're punched by the Hulk, or caught in a large explosion, you're not likely to take enough damage in a single attack to get you to fully negative HP.

Of course, you can build a character with high HT. It's a relatively cheap stat, and HT 14 means you have a 90% chance of staying conscious to fight another second. Of course, it also means you have a 90% chance of not dying. High HT is pretty incredible.

Bill Stoddard

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm a Hero partisan, so I'm going to recommend Hero over GURPS. But just slightly. :) When GURPS went to 4e it was shortly after Hero went to 5e, so I kind of made a decision at that point to follow Hero's path. But I go as far back as Man To Man, sent in my "What do you want to see?" survey, and got on the Roleplayer mailing list. Still got my #1 handy, I think, though it's worse for wear over the years.

GURPS and Hero do a lot of things very similarly. They're both point-based systems with skills, powers, and disadvantages. Both use 3d6, roll low against a target number, for task and combat resolution.

I'll agree with what most folks have said about GURPS being more optimized from its initial design stages for non-super, somewhat realistic adventuring and Hero being more optimized for cinematic, supers-style stuff, but I'll also note that when I was a regular GURPS player I never had any trouble getting it to do cinematic supers-style with the right switches thrown. Same for Hero and gritty realistic type stuff.

Given your fourth criterion (few to no reduced abilities from damage) I'd slightly recommend Hero over GURPS, but only slightly. They're both fine, sturdy, time-tested systems. If someone were to invite me to a GURPS campaign, I'd gladly play, though I'd need some time to get up to speed with current rules and ways of doing things.