Dungeon Fantasy and HT Rolls -> Death

[sunstone]

I am on the fence to buy the dungeon fantasy RPG as a pdf.

I have one question about it, especially combat:

I am avid GURPS player but run into problems when named monsters have a HT of 11 or 12 or even higher and keep on going for rounds and rounds and the players have to hack HP away to kill the beast.

The problem I have with this is that it is so anticlimatic to wait for a monster to get over a certain HP-threshold and see it make the roll again and again.

So, how is it done in dungeon fantasy? Death rolls? Any change to the gurps system?

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by sunstone

The problem I have with this is that it is so anticlimatic to wait for a monster to get over a certain HP-threshold and see it make the roll again and again.

So, how is it done in dungeon fantasy? Death rolls? Any change to the gurps system?

The Exploits book has a sidebar, "And Stay Down!," on page 86, that deals with this very question. It suggests that the GM should "adjust the injury level that will defeat monsters in a given encounter." It provides some recommendations for different levels of monsters, from a "1-HP tap" for the weakest fodder to -1xHP for worthies. It recommends reserving the full injury rules for bosses. This sidebar is also referenced from the Monsters book on page 6.

For DF-style games, I typically just have most monsters drop dead at zero unless the dramatic needs of the encounter demand more or a PC wants to take a prisoner.

[Lord Azagthoth]

And don't forget the Conscious Check every turn if the monster does something else than Do Nothing. A Consciousness Check every turn is alot quicker way to subdue the monster than a Deatch Check every multiple of HP. When its unconscious, go for the kill and drop the monster to -5xHP instantly.

[sunstone]

Okay, seems similar to GURPS then.

My gripe is the story and emotional aspect. It is a downer, that you have to chop HP away bit for bit when a boss has high HT and high pain threshold. Everyone is going "awwwww..." when he makes his 15th HT roll without a problem. But maybe my players should aim for vitals more etc. to do more damage.
Somehow killing some boss monster is more epic in D&D, not sure why though.

[Kromm]

Also, don't overlook the fact that players aren't supposed to know how many HP monsters have! Tough monsters are designed to take a lot of hacking to drop. The only practical difference between "60 HP and HT 10, and probably drops at most a turn after 60 points of injury" and "10 HP and HT 15, and probably needs 60 points of injury to be hacked down to -5×HP" is a few dice rolls in the latter case for the slim chance of victory before 60 points are inflicted. Intermediate HT values decrease the creature's effective HP and increase that chance, but it's not the case that players should be able to say, "This foe has x HP, so it should be finished once we inflict that."

So if there's an anticlimax, it's more a result of play style (i.e., revealing HP to the players) than game mechanics. If the GM thinks it's fairer to reveal HP, well, I'd recommend exaggerating HP for high-HT creatures. If the players have the impression that the HP 10, HT 15 monster is a HP 60 foe, and that enemy gets unlucky and fails an early HT roll, the victory will seem unexpected and sweet! However you handle it, the unpredictability of HT rolls serves to prevent players from getting too cocky (and frankly, mechanical) about anticipating victory.

[TorgSmith]

Also, you do not need to always use the same number of HP or HT on creatures every time. You can change other things about a monster as well. I like to mix stats up to shape the monster to my needs at the moment. Keep them guessing.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Dalin

For DF-style games, I typically just have most monsters drop dead at zero unless the dramatic needs of the encounter demand more or a PC wants to take a prisoner.

For my games it's similar: 0 HP or failing an HT roll on a major wound. Regardless, a monster (or really anyone) at 0 HP needs to keep making HT rolls to act normally and stay conscious. Until you get to about HT 13 or so, few monsters are going to be able to act normally for more than a few seconds before dropping anyways, so having them just go down at 0 HP doesn't take away much. At HT 10, the monster will get one more turn before dropping, on average (50/50 chance each second); at HT 12, the monster will get three more turns.

Hmmm, that might not be a bad rule to keep the players guessing more. At HT 10, a monster gets one more turn after dropping to 0 HP. At HT 11, it gets two more turns, at HT 12, three more turns, and above that, roll. If it goes to full negative, then treat its HT as one lower, and another one lower for each full multiple below -HP. So a HT 13 gets only three more turns at -HP and an HT 10 monster drops, a monster of HT 15 will get three more turns after going to -4×HP

[Michael Thayne]

The wording of the "And Stay Down!" sidebar makes me unclear on what the "default" approach is, which surprises me a bit given that the DFRPG otherwise tries really, really hard to streamline everything as much as possible. This is particularly surprising to me with published adventures—what assumptions were used when balancing encounters?

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

The wording of the "And Stay Down!" sidebar makes me unclear on what the "default" approach is, which surprises me a bit given that the DFRPG otherwise tries really, really hard to streamline everything as much as possible. This is particularly surprising to me with published adventures—what assumptions were used when balancing encounters?

That's a good question, though it's worth noting a key point of "And Stay Down!" that didn't get quoted earlier in the thread:

The sidebar isn't a suggestion to change the rules for monster unconsciousness or death (which would indeed be a notable break in streamlining). It's only suggesting that the GM set the point at which monsters give up, deciding to flee or cower or otherwise stop fighting. I'm reading it as just a reminder that many (not all!) monsters can be played "smart", from the monsters' viewpoint, which fits right in with all the other advice on playing monsters "smart", mainly the "Tactics" section in Monsters (p6). (Even though "And Stay Down!" is presented more as a GM time-saving tip than a "how to play monsters" tip, its key point – that monsters won't necessarily fight to the death – would be a good fit for the "Tactics" section.)

So, I see "And Stay Down!" as just another bit on playing (some) monsters intelligently, and not any break in the game's approach. But... as you suggest, whether the GM plays monsters "smart", using the bits in "And Stay Down!" or the bits in "Tactics", can have a huge effect on encounter balance. I hope this is clear enough to newbie GMs...

[sir_pudding]

I used the rules that these are derived from from GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 2: Dungeons frequently in my last DF game. I found that for the most part the PCs did enough damage that most monsters that it makes sense to treat as minions would have suffered a major wound anyway, so really having them stop fighting with any hit that did damage was just a time saving measure that didn't change the difficulty of the encounter or its outcome.