WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

[Parody]

Originally Posted by Racer

Yes of course I do Parody - I was around then.

I interpreted your post as that the son emailed these suggestions to you, and thus that son was making the inline comments. Similarly, someone younger may not have lived through the times involved. (I was in elementary school when I bought a pocket box, for example.)

My response would be "More than likely yes, it was based on Harleys from the 60s and 70s." Poking around some random sites with specs for various models from that era, I got a range from ~350 to ~750 lbs. From there you're looking at how much is science, how much is fiction, and how much is game balance for a system that didn't have trikes or gas engines.

As far as how CW things compare to modern vehicles, well, almost of Car Wars is from 20 years ago or more. They probably shouldn't compare well.

I wish them the best in their chosen house revisions, though. I hope they're having fun with the theorycraft.

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by Parody

As far as how CW things compare to modern vehicles, well, almost of Car Wars is from 20 years ago or more. They probably shouldn't compare well.

I'd concur on this point in particular. Vehicles have changed over the last few decades. There are more glaring items IMO, such as the mini-van.

[Racer]

Oh yes I totally agree with the Mini Van Trailers - should be 250lbs , 200lbs , 150lbs or even 100lbs . Trailers apart from the Largest are far too weighty : we built a 8 Foot steel framed with wood panels at my Boarding School in the '80's , for towing by School Mini Bus ( actually a Van ) . Basically a Flatbed with raised 2½ Foot Sides & cargo covered in a tarpaulin . Two of us teenaged could turn it over when empty , so bulky but not heavy - I'd say 300lbs ? - and could carry over 1½ Tons of stuff , like a load of bricks to build a new Workshop .

[TheAmishStig]

It could be too that values are fuzzy for the sake of game balance. Completely perfectly accurate real-world figures are usually one of the first things to go when an obviously dominant combination shows up in early playtesting.

Though I am forever amused by the anachronism that is Radial tires being the label for the 'Handles Better' tire upgrade. It's one of the things that (like much of the 'The future as imagined in the early 1980s, when VCRs were mind-blowing technology' aspects of Shadowrun) contributes to the game's personality.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Racer

2 ) Spaces : Cycles were introduced 5+ years before Component Armour was available - so Light Cycles can't benefit from using it AND a useful weapon . Solution : Lt Cycles have 5 Spaces & Med Cycles 6 .

Simpler Solution: CA does not occupy space on cycles. [Explanation: Like 0-sp. passengers, the bulk is all "exterior" to the cycle.]

Originally Posted by Racer

3 ) Max Load for Lt Cycles : Bring into line with larger Cycles . Max Weight now 900lbs

Or knock 100 lbs. off the body weight?

A large part of the problem: Most accessories came along after the Cycles were developed; there's been no mechanism for "updating" Cycles to carry all the new stuff.

Originally Posted by Racer

They've not started on Subcompacts yet , but will email me their ideas soonish .

Subcompacts are easily fixed:

1) Drop body wgt to 750 lbs.

2) 2-sp. turrets re-legalized for Compacts; Subcompacts may carry 1-sp. turret.

250 lbs. for a Sub is 50 pts. of armor; which sounds like a lot until one has divide it amongst 4-6 armor locations. Then there's all the extras like Wheelguards and Wheelhubs (even in events which don't allow tire shots, those are desirable adds). With the Turret reconfiguration, a Sub with a Medium PP can have a (note singular) 360-degree weapon.

[juris]

Improve their base HC - Lt by 3 Med by 2 Hvy by 1

As previously stated cycles are Tie fighters :)

[HeatDeath]

On a side note, it's not entirely clear to me where the stereotype of TIE fighters as expendable popcorn came from. Those things were deadly in Ep4 and largely unseen in Ep5 and 6. Maybe it's just TIE Interceptors that are expendable popcorn. :)

[swordtart]

Cycles are fine if you use them right.

They have many advantages to offset their disadvantages but if you never set up your attack to take advantage of them you will suffer.

Bikes for example can have only a single component affected per attack (including from linked weapons?) no matter how much damage your enemy does. A trike can be stripped front to back by a high damage weapon.

A bike only has front and rear fire arc. According to the rules, any shot to its top, underbody, left or right arc suffers a -2 for being out of arc. I suspect this is an oversight, but the general rule was "bike need all the help they can get".

Any mod that is paid per wheel is going to be cheaper with a bike.

A bike and side car with max suspension, Radials and active suspension can have a base HC of 6!!! (as written you could argue that the active suspension and radials are counted separately for the bike and sidecar and get up to HC 8, but I think that is pushing it). With other mods like HD shocks costing far less for bikes you can really throw the bike around and enjoy hazards without having to worry about control loss.

Bikes are great off-road with no off-road equipment at all (as long as you have conventional Solids to avoid off-road damage).

Bikes can carry a no space passenger with a 360 degree firing arc.

Bikes with salvaged gas engines are very cheap. The 100cc is a perfect fit for a heavy cycle. Salvaged with 5 DPs missing it will cost you $250 and give you ACC 15!

If you loose a single tire on a trike, you are no less dead in the water than a bike that looses a single tire. Whilst I though it would be rally bad, an automatic roll on crash table can still be eminently survivable.

You can get off a bike quicker than you can get out of a car or trike. If you are on fire, or you plan on jumping onto another vehicle the extra second can be vital. If you are rolling as a result of crash table 1 your interpretation of the rules may man that before someone can leave a car they need to spend a second opening a door. If that door is on the side they are about to roll onto, it will mean that when it rolls, that side has no armour. Some people rule that "Occupants may jump out at any time" means you don't have to open a door, we rule that you can start to jump out at any time, but you still need to follow the rules for exiting a vehicle.

Bikes are optimal when they are cheap. Extra expense seldom brings proportional benefit. The cheapest bike is probably still more cost effective than the cheapest trike.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by HeatDeath

On a side note, it's not entirely clear to me where the stereotype of TIE fighters as expendable popcorn came from. Those things were deadly in Ep4 and largely unseen in Ep5 and 6. Maybe it's just TIE Interceptors that are expendable popcorn. :)

They come in Hordes -- according to canon: There were only ~30 Rebel fighters involved in the first Death Star attack; a single Star Destroyer's complement (~75) of TIEs would have overwhelmed them. (Had Tarkin not been so arrogant, and Vader not being concerned with making sure Tarkin didn't go rogue[1], the DS's TIE complement would have been more than enough to deal with the problem.)

[1: It's a point made in the _SW_ Radio series: Leia has it backwards; Tarkin is not holding Vader's leash, Vader is holding Tarkin's. Tarkin repeatedly refers to the DS as "the Galaxy's ultimate power", and has to be reminded he serves the Emperor. Palpatine knows Tarkin is ruthless enough to use the DS, *and* ruthless enough to bring it to the Imperial capitol to obliterate Palpatine, and take over the Empire himself. Vader is there to Force-choke tarkin into the middle of next week if Tarkin even *thinks* about going into business for himself.

And if the above sounds to the reader like the internal politics of Every CW Biker Gang ever, well.... >:) ]

In _CW_, Bikes operate the same way. That semi-trailer with the 20 points of metal backed by 100 points of plastic looks invincible; but it costs $200,000 -- now take that $200,000 and see how many HESH-loaded-RR-equipped Medium Cycles one can bring to bear. Hint: The bikes are maybe $5K per....

[Racer]

And the Trucker can't legally use Beehive Ammo for his rear mounted Tank Gun ...

;-)