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Old 05-09-2009, 08:18 AM   #1
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

A big debate has blown up in the group I normally game with about the current cycle rules . As it stands it's cheaper and more effective to have a Light Trike rather than a Heavy Cycle - the trike body is 50lbs lighter , the armor weighs 5lbs a point ( as opposed to 6lbs ) and the max load with an X-hvy chassis is 50% greater . The two guys who played a cycle gang , have after many defeats traded in their bikes for trikes - their success rate has now rocketed ! Okay the top speed of individual vehicles has dropped , but the total cost for the same number of vehicles has dropped about 15% . All this and armor on all sides .

Always thought it was a joke that Hvy Cycles armor costs and weighs more than that of Light Trikes and Subcompacts per point - surely bike fronts/backs have far less surface areas than those two ?

As the rules stand a Light Cycle frame weighs in at 250lbs . In 1981 when the rules were written , this may have been nearly correct ( yeah right ! ) , but since then things have changed so much . In 2007 , the late Evel Knievel said about people breaking his old jump records " ... yeah but nowadays motorbikes are twice as powerful and are half the weight ... " !

So do you think the basic stats need looking into ?
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:53 PM   #2
Outla
 
Join Date: May 2005
Default Re: WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

Part of the discrepancy is that trikes were introduced at least 5 years later than cycles. There is a concept of 'mudflation' that affects ALL games: in general, newer more recent options/items added to a game are always slightly more powerful than the old.

More relevant to your situation, though: trikes have chassis mods and cycles don't. If you want trikes to match up a little closer to cycles, don't allow them to have chassis mods! When they were originally introduced, they were more cycle-like than car-like, and had no chassis mods. Obviously, that changed over time.

In relation to the subcompacts: yes, it's dumb that subcompacts have such light armor. But originally, when there were no power plant mods, most subcompacts had to limit themselves to 2400 pounds, not 2760 pounds. Most people just let it go, because subcompacts needed all the help they could get. It didn't become a real issue until many years later.
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:32 AM   #3
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

Trikes are, to put it mildly, superior to bikes -- but then *everything* is
superior to bikes. Bikes were rubbish when the game was first written, and
have only become worse. This is deliberate, as the idea was for the Heroic
Duellist to run up his skills and cash by slaughtering Orcs^H^H^H^HBikers
en masse.

Any future rewrite of _CW_ must include "Bikes may have chassis upgrades";
otherwise, no one's ever going to use Bikes.

Side note on Subcompacts: It doesn't help that Sub body weight is out-of-line
with other vehicles in the game (the general value is "body wgt. = 1/3 std.
chassis max. load"); the Sub's body should weigh 750 lbs.
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Old 05-10-2009, 10:52 AM   #4
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outla
More relevant to your situation, though: trikes have chassis mods and cycles don't. If you want trikes to match up a little closer to cycles, don't allow them to have chassis mods! When they were originally introduced, they were more cycle-like than car-like, and had no chassis mods. Obviously, that changed over time.
I would rather solve it from the cycle end - to penalise the players who have used the brains and come up with better designs dosen't seem fair .
Couple of ideas kicking around are to reduce the cycle frame weights to 150 , 200 and 250lbs and the armor weights to 3 , 4 and 5lbs respectively . Side car weights would drop to half what the currently are .
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:40 AM   #5
J. Roberts
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Default Re: WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

Didn't that goofy cycle windshell give a huge boost to motorcycle builds? I always remembered that windshell as being so good that it basically became standard equipment on any cycle design (improves my handling and gives me side armor? Sign me up!).
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:09 PM   #6
Hemlock
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Default Re: WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Roberts
Didn't that goofy cycle windshell give a huge boost to motorcycle builds? I always remembered that windshell as being so good that it basically became standard equipment on any cycle design (improves my handling and gives me side armor? Sign me up!).
Plus the fact that a cycle can add Component Armor around the cyclist ~and~ the Power plant for under $200, 60-80 lbs and only one space ...
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Old 06-09-2009, 03:47 AM   #7
Toltrin
 
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Default Re: WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

Why not give the cycle the option to have side armor at the cost of 1/2 space per side, including top and bottom armor as well? It is possible to have armor put in - but at a great expense (aerodynamics, rider comfort, ect.). Maybe even have it so a cycle can have two front tires side by side and two back tires side by side. The armor that would cost the 1/2 space per side would be limited to up to 10 points plastic armor per 1/2 space and maybe 1-2 points of metal per 1/2 space.
Tell me what you think...
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:34 AM   #8
Parody
 
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Location: Twin Cities, MN
Default Re: WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toltrin View Post
Why not give the cycle the option to have side armor...including top and bottom armor as well? ... Maybe even have it so a cycle can have two front tires side by side and two back tires side by side.
Why not take a subcompact?

Here at SPARK we're rediscovering all of the cycle limitations as our duel this weekend is Division 5 Pro, Cycles Only in the Double Drum. I'm not sure if it'll go quickly, but it should be interesting.
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Old 06-10-2009, 01:14 AM   #9
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Default Re: WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toltrin View Post
Why not give the cycle the option to have side armor at the cost of 1/2 space per side, including top and bottom armor as well?
I'd handle it similarly to sidecar rules -- if a shot comes in from the L, R, T, or
U sides, determine whether the shot comes from ahead, or behind, the mid-
point of the counter; if the former, the shot may hit the F armor or tire (per
normal cycle targeting rules); if the latter, it may hit the B armor or tire. A
cycle with a Windshell would ignore this, and take the hit on the shell.

I've had rules for three- and four-wheel cycles for years. :)
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:06 AM   #10
Scurv
 
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Default Re: WHY are the Cycle rules so bad compared to Trikes ?

The case of Cycles being less maneuverable than cars just never added up to me. Have a look at those high speed chase shows the yanks crank out and watch a nutter on a bike leave the cops behind time and time again. Trikes on the other hand do have stability and handeling issues.

That side armour should come at the cost of Trikes tipping over more often.

Not having access to my books at the moment I recall they had rules for cycles in 5e. Did they shake things up with them or was it more of the same?

Anyways the best 'bike gangs' had subcompacts and a pickup or 2 for transporting the loot.
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