Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > Roleplaying in General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-26-2018, 10:24 PM   #431
Kax
 
Kax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: God's Own Country
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerBW View Post
The specific distinction, which is still technically present in maritime law, is that jetsam (which may but need not be floating) is still the property of its original owner, while flotsam (which must be floating) may be claimed by the finder. (There's obviously a third category, material lost overboard that is not floating. "Lagan" refers to this when there's a buoy attached to it, which serves as a claim. Otherwise it counts as derelict, and without hope of recovery, because the law predates diving.)

(I suspect that somewhere in the back of this is an incentive to let captains cut cargo loose when a ship is in danger of foundering.)

IIRC it's to deal with smugglers throwing their illicit cargo overboard and claiming that they 'don't own it now'.
__________________
Paul May | MIB 1138 (on hiatus)
Kax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2018, 10:26 PM   #432
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post



The practice of marrying off noble daughters to other kingdoms or noble houses was a limited form of this.
I don't remember any active version of this. Even being bondbroker for prisoners of war would be useful.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2018, 11:01 PM   #433
cptbutton
 
cptbutton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
The Portland Protective Association in SM Stirling's Emberverse has similar practice. Only the lord sworn to the Crown can commit treason. That lord's retainers and vassals, who are sworn to THE LORD, aren't as long as they are dutifully obeying their lord.

I think this is one reason that in the Third Imperium of Traveller nobility is created by, and sword directly to, the Emperor himself. Despite intervening levels of nobility between a baron and the Emperor the baron is ultimately sworn to the Emperor and not the count and duke in between.
At various places Barrayans who are not armsmen or getting married swear "as a vassal secundus to Ezra/Gregor Vobarra" which I assumes means that this oath is subject to the Emperor's override, unlike the others.
cptbutton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 08:27 AM   #434
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
I don't remember any active version of this. Even being bondbroker for prisoners of war would be useful.

I don't think you're going to see any more active form than this, and I suspect it was intended to be a lot more active than past statements have implied.



The problem is that you want most of your population to be married, and if your ambassador is married to someone loyal to you, the "Women are immune" benefit goes away. So you have to marry them to someone on the other side, and if you do that, it may as well be as high up the chain as you can get. Foreign marriages were absolutely about diplomacy.
__________________
Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 09:13 AM   #435
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I don't think you're going to see any more active form than this, and I suspect it was intended to be a lot more active than past statements have implied.



The problem is that you want most of your population to be married, and if your ambassador is married to someone loyal to you, the "Women are immune" benefit goes away. So you have to marry them to someone on the other side, and if you do that, it may as well be as high up the chain as you can get. Foreign marriages were absolutely about diplomacy.
Yes but they were usually about tying the two geneologies together in the hopes that they would regard each other as cousins. And about obtaining property claims. The woman who married exogamously was not herself expected to be a pathway of negotiation between the blood family and the in-law family. Or at least it is not talked ablout much in history.

"Immunity of women" is a real political consideration, for in tribal conflict that gives them the ability to cross no mans land. The benefit of the immunity of women in exogamous matches is not that she won't be attacked: all diplomats are immune in that sense. It is that she will also not be expected to fight for her family. That is in an exogamous match, if there is a feud a matrilocal male really does have a conflict of interest. A patrilocal female is on the contrary potentially serving mutual interest. It is making a bug into a feature essentially.

The point I was making was that endogamy was a way to keep down the risk of conflicting loyalty. Exogamy could be used to harness it but seems mysteriously to have been neglected. Whareas the more abstract usages, of gaining theoretical blood ties and property claims were eagerly sought but may have been less useful then they seemed.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 09:16 AM   #436
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Here is one. The King is REQUIRED to marry polygamously. Of these one third must be noble, one third influential commoners. The rest are some mixture of diplomatic marriages abroad and his own private preference.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 09:25 AM   #437
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Here is one. The King is REQUIRED to marry polygamously. Of these one third must be noble, one third influential commoners. The rest are some mixture of diplomatic marriages abroad and his own private preference.

That won't cause drama at ALL.



Is he required to marry in sets of three? Or is it just kind of an order "Your next wife must either be a aristocrat or rich commoner".



Who gets to inherit?


I'd personally drop the "and his own private preference". Those are called mistresses, and they're not wives. Don't short out one of the categories. The king, or course, can try to fit them into a category and marry them. The most notable affairs fit into those categories anyways.



Who inherits?
__________________
Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 11:02 AM   #438
tanksoldier
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
. Exogamy could be used to harness it but seems mysteriously to have been neglected.
I suspect it has been neglected by history, not in practice.

Done correctly it puts a potentially very influential voice in a king’s ear.

...and among lesser houses it still gives them a back channel of communication even if the houses are feuding openly.
tanksoldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 12:37 PM   #439
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
That won't cause drama at ALL.






I'd personally drop the "and his own private preference". Those are called mistresses, and they're not wives. Don't short out one of the categories. The king, or course, can try to fit them into a category and marry them. The most notable affairs fit into those categories anyways.
That's in Europe. European nobility were not officially polygamous. They were just hypocritical.

If there are several wives there is no reason to make a legal distinction between the personal and political. It was done anyway which is why we have concubinage. Be that as it may, this system allows the King to marry for preference and make no distinction with the others. As soon as he has reasonably accounted for the other duties.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison

Last edited by jason taylor; 07-27-2018 at 12:47 PM.
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 12:46 PM   #440
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
That won't cause drama at ALL.



Is he required to marry in sets of three? Or is it just kind of an order "Your next wife must either be a aristocrat or rich commoner".



Who gets to inherit?

Actually that is an interesting idea. And of course the Matchmaker of the Palace will have a lot of power.

Inheritance is an interesting problem. On the other hand it can be a feature. Perhaps Parliament can elect out of all those potential heirs making it more likely to get a competent ruler then primogeniture. The main problem is giving the spares enough of a stake to avoid rebellion. Historically expansionism was one way to find stakes for ambitious nobles and princes but that assumes military superiority. On the other hand if it is not forbidden to be in trade, a prince can be an industrialist or whatever.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.