"Broken" IN Characters

Orlin · 12-17-2010, 01:13 AM

So, I've been thinking about IN recently, and I've realized that the main reason I've stopped playing (apart from some general discrepancies with my players and their availability), has been because I was far too generous with character creation. It isn't that this just dawned on me - more or less, it's that I didn't know how to deal with the issue while I was running my first game.

Looking back on it, I didn't completely understand the IN rules before I started tinkering with them. I didn't like that the characters didn't get enough points, so I decided to "solve" that problem by giving them *more* points.

The problem is, you can never have enough points - until you have too many. I didn't like that you could get characters who only had 9-10 points (at best) to distribute between their skills, so I gave them bonus points - and then, when they were done creating their characters, I gave them a free level in vessel because I forgot to charge them initially. To make matters worse, the players had access the the Liber Canticorum, which made them skimp on skills in order to buy an array of extremely powerful Songs.

I "resolved" this issue (and made yet another critical mistake) by giving them all a selection of bonus skills, because it bothered me that one of the characters could fight, shoot, wield a sword, make a sale, run a business and seduce a mortal - but he couldn't drive, didn't know his way around the city, couldn't swim and didn't possess a general education.

In short, I fell into the trap that angels were like humans. One character had a skill list that was perfectly suitable for a Malakite, but I didn't think it was logical that anybody could fight, but not swim or drive or navigate a city. I quickly forgot that most angels aren't familiar with the corporeal world and might very well need to learn to do these things - and this could have been the one thing that made them interesting.

As time went on, I discovered that I needed to build villains that were now capable of matching the PC's *** for tat, and this led to some really nasty frustrations. More and more, the angels and demons I built were defined not by their skills or Attunements, but by how diverse I could make their Songs. In a way, it was like playing a d20 game where everyone was a Wizard. Couple that with my inability to remember exactly what most of the Songs did and my problem remembering to keep track of things like Disturbance, and I basically had a game where the PC's were not unlike Gods.

The most frustrating problem I recall, as a storyteller, was presenting a powerful opposition without providing myself with some kind of character sheet. I don't like to pause games to shuffle my books around so that I can determine exactly how much damage the Song of Celestial Light does, and I have trouble equipping celestials with songs that make them into rough targets. This made it really difficult for me to provide the players with challenging opposition, and that made them tough to police.

I was also frustrated by the way the Attunements worked out. It seemed, to me, that they were largely hit or miss. Some of them were really valuable, while others just didn't seem like they were worth the points. Most of the Elohite Attunements struck me as virtually worthless when compared to some of the Songs - even common Songs - that were available in the LC.

So, looking back on it, I really wish I'd been more careful. But, knowing now that I'd made a series of mistakes, I'm thinking about picking the game back up. Naturally, I'm hesitant - but I think I have a better idea of where to start.

Do any of you ever use variants when creating IN characters? Do you award bonus points? Do you leave it precisely as the rules have it written?

When you reward the PC's, how many character points do you provide - do you ever deviate from the methods described in the Core Guide? How firmly do you delegate what the PC's can and cannot purchase? Provided that they remain favored by their Superior, what are you willing to give them? How long should it take before they can start asking for Forces, and how do you keep a game balanced if you intend to eventually allow players to have characters who are at risk of becoming Word-bound due to their raw power?

Azel · 12-17-2010, 02:54 AM

So you gave away the armory, then fired the sheriffs, and wondered why it's been anarchy ever since? ;) That's a pretty common beginner GM mistake. Was there even any GM review before campaign start?

I definitely do use variants, but usually only to assist normally weak characters, such as humans. THe other variants I do like tend to be improving resources that I find have poor sale value. However, I also implement quite a bit of strict character creation guidelines for regular celestials. They already have quite the buff tech; it's a little too easy to tip into problematic power levels.

I favor Routine Actions and Extra Skill Points (divided into Localized Everyday Skills & Profession Skills) for Humans. They live in the corporeal world, it's quite familiar to them. A lifetime on earth should account with some familiarity with how it *should* work.

For celestials, I use the guideline that Skills/Songs don't get greater than 3-4 levels at creation (though I love listening to PC designs that argue for exceptions). I also use disturbance in tens of yards, instead of just yards. And during play, I make celestials roll considerably more for everyday tasks -- unless they bought something close via Roles or Skills. Human society keeps humans in check; use human and celestial society to keep celestials in check.

With Character Point awards, I am very tight-fisted. At least 1 CP, but rarely more than that unless a mission was finished in a very positive way &/or role played well. I also try alternative rewards, such as in-game role play rewards (information, informal titles, contacts, informal status, etc).

This is perhaps the toughest recommendation for new GMs: Don't run In Nomine as a D&D dungeon crawl, with a united party. Party's are powerful forces, first off. Second, it often doesn't make sense. A diverse clutch of celestials will have many competing motivations -- and those motivations should win out over "party unity" often. If players get lazy about this, that's what punishments are for. Punish players who put "PC party" over Superior demands and individual responsibilities/survival. Break that bad habit immediately, and you'll rapidly notice how potent villains will be again.

darksaba · 12-17-2010, 03:30 AM

I see In Nomine as a "great power with severe limitations" game, similar to Vampire the Masquerade. Sure you have power beyond that of mear mortals. Charcaters can throw cars arround like they're toys, alter the fabric of reality on a whim and generally be badass to an absurd degree. The limitation is that of you use any of your cool tricks then you are going to come to the attention of someone with a lot more power than you, and they're going to ask awkard questions.

Jason · 12-17-2010, 10:52 AM

(This post got really long while I wasn't paying attention. I think the summary version is: Character creation in the core rules is actually pretty well point balanced, but a free vessel isn't unreasonable. If you give more points to start with, I don't recommend going over 40-42 or so, with some limitations on what points should be spent on depending on the needs of your adventure/setting. And, for goodness' sake, do not let your players use LC songs that have a burning feather next to the name. Read on for the long version.)

Since I picked up IN again in recent years, I have run two multi-meeting adventures. I think coming up with a "power level" that works for your players is something you need to feel out, but it's better to start everyone underpowered and then give them stuff than it is to start them overpowered and struggle to catch up (or, worse, take stuff away from them, making your players sad).

In an adventure where everybody played 9-Force angels, I kept to the core rules pretty closely. I made disturbance easier for me to calculate, and I allowed players to pick "common" songs from Liber Canticorum (WITHOUT burning feather icons—the Song of Symphony is for plot devices, NOT player use, as far as I am concerned). Most PCs did not take many mundane skills like Driving, but remember that you can still drive even without the skill—the skill is for special feats of driving, like car chases. To start with, they were only allowed to choose attunements from the Superior(s) they served directly.

As for rewards, everyone got 1-2 character points after each meeting. Between meetings, they were able to save up points to spend later, or they could spend 1 point on any Skill or Song they attempted to use (successfully or not) in that meeting. So, no giving yourself the Seduction skill out of nowhere; you've got to practice!

At the end of the game, everybody got a couple extra points (totaling 10 over the entire adventure), and got some extra options of Archangels they could buy attunements from (e.g., Marc and Yves were happy with everybody, Novalis was happy with certain people, David was happy with others, etc.). Everyone also got a bonus award from their respective Archangel that reflected that they did a good job but were also slightly embarrassing to their Superior in some ways. One character, for instance, was given Divine Destiny by Yves, kind of to suggest "this is a reward but also a reminder to do your job better and not screw up people's lives." He was stripped of his Bound Discord, but also given the Merciful Discord (as he was playing a Mercurian who drew a gun on human beings). Another character was given a Vassal distinction, but it was (or will be next time we play) very obvious that this was due to political considerations to hide how badly some things were mishandled. In other words, everyone in my game got 10 points over the course of the adventure to spend on goodies they liked, and another "thing" that was as much a message to them as it was a reward.

After I ran this, I had a better idea of how the power of characters worked out, so I felt more comfortable making up house rules for character creation. The next campaign I ran was for the same group of players, each playing a 6-7 Force human, demon, or ethereal. Because of the needs of this setting, I gave everyone who needed one a free Role and a free level-1 Vessel, and everybody got bonus points covering the difference in starting points between a 6- or 7-Force character and a 10-Force character. Those bonus points had to be spent, however, on skills and knowledge related to their mundane lives, not on Songs or combat-oriented skills (unless they were cops or something). I encouraged them to spend some of the rest of their points on attunements (and affinities, for the ethereal), as they were all renegades/freelancers rather than working for a Superior, and wouldn't get another chance to pick up attunements easily.

That campaign is supposed to feel lower-powered, and it met slightly more often, so I only gave 1 character point per meeting, with a smaller bonus at the end (e.g., a small artifact to each person, and a discount on Theft attunements, as Valefor plays an unusual role in the non-canonical setting I'm using).

I think both approaches felt okay in balance power-wise, but my players seemed to prefer the second set of characters a lot better. I'm not sure if that's because demons' and humans' powers are more fun to them than angels' powers, because the setting is just more interesting to them (I do a better job with a place I actually lived than a place I made up), or because I kept a tighter leash on how they spent their character points.

Azel · 12-17-2010, 11:24 AM

There is something to be said for the learning curve, for both the GM & Players. That's why I find being overly generous with CP early can lead to confusion and dissatisfaction. There'd be a "keeping up with the Jones'" effect, along with a lack of time to become familiar with what you got, if everyone is being showered with CP.

Further, using reality (and props) helps ground campaigns, freeing GM "processing power". That's why I like to use reality as inspiration. A sharp GM who can set boundaries and apply (believable) discipline gains the respect of players -- and in turn helps players manage the nebulous game world. (The Revelations Cycle books are pretty good at this Background grounding, btw. GURPS is even better.) Imagination is a lot like the Marches, giving strong landmarks and coherent rules makes for a more relatable and digestible experience.

PenitentDemon · 12-17-2010, 03:28 PM

I usualy give about 2 CP on average(had maybe 8 sessions to be fair)

one thing to keep in mind, is unlike White wolf games, Costs in in nomine dont increase geometricly.

thus 4 CP is a lot, enough to buy a charachteristic.

Im having a problem of my own with NPC Design... Im trying to design some NPC Villains, and allies, and would like some advice on... how much is probaly "too much" for a NPC Villains songs, attunements, etc.

As its easy to keep adding another attunement or song whenever you feel like it

currently its a one on one game, me and a reliever (mentioned it before I know) thing is any feelings as I have liber canticorium and some songs ARE QUITE powerful.

Ideas on how to know if Im assigning too much to a NPC (since they dont have a CAP, as such)

it seems very tempting to go overboard and give them "just one more song" etc.

it can be hard to know which songs they should have at what level and what attunements.

Especialy, some songs, (other then the ones listed for relievers and demonlings) can look "just right"

The song of nightmares, from liber canticorium looks good for a demonling in beleths service, is a no brainer.
(Im sorry for repeating myself)

Dalillama · 12-17-2010, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darksaba

I see In Nomine as a "great power with severe limitations" game, similar to Vampire the Masquerade. Sure you have power beyond that of mear mortals. Charcaters can throw cars arround like they're toys, alter the fabric of reality on a whim and generally be badass to an absurd degree. The limitation is that of you use any of your cool tricks then you are going to come to the attention of someone with a lot more power than you, and they're going to ask awkard questions.

This has been my experience as a player. The character started out at 10 Forces, calculating points as usual, and has now had probably 100+ points worth of development over the course of the campaign, counting rewards given out in lieu of/in addition to xp. The character is now 13 Forces, has acquired multiple Attunements, Songs, and skills, and is still regularly confronted with situations in which the ability to, e.g. infuse someone with artistic talent, heal their wounds, or call matter in to being from nothingness won't actually solve the problems at hand, not to mention that they all cost precious Essence, and it's amazing how fast you can burn that up when you start seriously warping reality.

Archangel Beth · 12-17-2010, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

[i][...] and another "thing" that was as much a message to them as it was a reward.

It is something I would like to make canon, that sometimes Jean will award a character a point of Intelligence. Not a Force. A point. In Intelligence. This generally suggests that he is of the opinion that the character, while not a total loss, has been doing something stupid, and is the sort of "reward" that has the angel's friends patting him on the shoulder sympathetically afterwards.

That is not canon at this time, but... it's how I think of Jean and backhanded compliments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenitentDemon

Im having a problem of my own with NPC Design... Im trying to design some NPC Villains, and allies, and would like some advice on... how much is probaly "too much" for a NPC Villains songs, attunements, etc.

I'd suggest, if you can, picking up the Liber Servitorum. Then cost out the various NPCs there and note what Distinctions they have and how many Forces they have, and see what approximate power-levels are being assigned to characters of a given status.

Or you can design some NPCs from scratch until you feel comfortable winging it! Assign Forces, derive points available from them, and scribble stuff out. If you stick to that kind of design, you'll probably be able to wing thing better when thinking "Okay, this NPC is a mild/moderate/tough/overpowering threat at [whatever] Forces."

Maybe add 5 points of unassigned "oh, DOH, of COURSE this character would have X skill, at least a little," but... don't overpower your PC because you are thinking of how cool the NPC can be, right? That's basically the whole and entire reason why one might want to make sure that one's NPCs are following the same character creation rules as one's PCs -- it keeps one from making the NPCs overly cool by accident. O:>

PenitentDemon · 12-17-2010, 07:10 PM

I got liber servitorium a week ago actually, lol.

I've looked through it, Then got the ethereal guide to make sense of the way demonlings are described...

Azel · 12-18-2010, 01:01 PM

Probably the best way to go about NPCs needing more stuff is -- add another NPC! :)

Yeah, it could come off as GM fiat, but if kept pretty judiciously, adding another NPC for a cameo appearance is just as good as adding more buffs to a campaign villain. Even better, it's easier to control because that NPC can just as easily be removed. Use those geases, have some Lilim call for some heavy hitters for your villain. Or have him use regular favors and call for occasional backup.

And you don't have to have full character sheets for these walk-on NPCs. They could just as easily be the "Specialist Song of Thunder!" that just walks on, does their thing, mess with the PCs, and then walks off. If the PCs want to delve more into the villain's relationships, or chase down those temp characters, then yeah you'll need a character sheet. But otherwise, no.

12-17-2010, 01:13 AM	#1
Orlin Join Date: Jun 2008	"Broken" IN Characters So, I've been thinking about IN recently, and I've realized that the main reason I've stopped playing (apart from some general discrepancies with my players and their availability), has been because I was far too generous with character creation. It isn't that this just dawned on me - more or less, it's that I didn't know how to deal with the issue while I was running my first game. Looking back on it, I didn't completely understand the IN rules before I started tinkering with them. I didn't like that the characters didn't get enough points, so I decided to "solve" that problem by giving them more points. The problem is, you can never have enough points - until you have too many. I didn't like that you could get characters who only had 9-10 points (at best) to distribute between their skills, so I gave them bonus points - and then, when they were done creating their characters, I gave them a free level in vessel because I forgot to charge them initially. To make matters worse, the players had access the the Liber Canticorum, which made them skimp on skills in order to buy an array of extremely powerful Songs. I "resolved" this issue (and made yet another critical mistake) by giving them all a selection of bonus skills, because it bothered me that one of the characters could fight, shoot, wield a sword, make a sale, run a business and seduce a mortal - but he couldn't drive, didn't know his way around the city, couldn't swim and didn't possess a general education. In short, I fell into the trap that angels were like humans. One character had a skill list that was perfectly suitable for a Malakite, but I didn't think it was logical that anybody could fight, but not swim or drive or navigate a city. I quickly forgot that most angels aren't familiar with the corporeal world and might very well need to learn to do these things - and this could have been the one thing that made them interesting. As time went on, I discovered that I needed to build villains that were now capable of matching the PC's *** for tat, and this led to some really nasty frustrations. More and more, the angels and demons I built were defined not by their skills or Attunements, but by how diverse I could make their Songs. In a way, it was like playing a d20 game where everyone was a Wizard. Couple that with my inability to remember exactly what most of the Songs did and my problem remembering to keep track of things like Disturbance, and I basically had a game where the PC's were not unlike Gods. The most frustrating problem I recall, as a storyteller, was presenting a powerful opposition without providing myself with some kind of character sheet. I don't like to pause games to shuffle my books around so that I can determine exactly how much damage the Song of Celestial Light does, and I have trouble equipping celestials with songs that make them into rough targets. This made it really difficult for me to provide the players with challenging opposition, and that made them tough to police. I was also frustrated by the way the Attunements worked out. It seemed, to me, that they were largely hit or miss. Some of them were really valuable, while others just didn't seem like they were worth the points. Most of the Elohite Attunements struck me as virtually worthless when compared to some of the Songs - even common Songs - that were available in the LC. So, looking back on it, I really wish I'd been more careful. But, knowing now that I'd made a series of mistakes, I'm thinking about picking the game back up. Naturally, I'm hesitant - but I think I have a better idea of where to start. Do any of you ever use variants when creating IN characters? Do you award bonus points? Do you leave it precisely as the rules have it written? When you reward the PC's, how many character points do you provide - do you ever deviate from the methods described in the Core Guide? How firmly do you delegate what the PC's can and cannot purchase? Provided that they remain favored by their Superior, what are you willing to give them? How long should it take before they can start asking for Forces, and how do you keep a game balanced if you intend to eventually allow players to have characters who are at risk of becoming Word-bound due to their raw power? __________________ "A knight's a sword with a horse. The vows, the sacred oil and the lady's favors, they're ribbons tied 'round the sword. Maybe the sword's prettier with the ribbons, but it'll kill you just as dead."

12-17-2010, 02:54 AM	#2
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: "Broken" IN Characters So you gave away the armory, then fired the sheriffs, and wondered why it's been anarchy ever since? ;) That's a pretty common beginner GM mistake. Was there even any GM review before campaign start? I definitely do use variants, but usually only to assist normally weak characters, such as humans. THe other variants I do like tend to be improving resources that I find have poor sale value. However, I also implement quite a bit of strict character creation guidelines for regular celestials. They already have quite the buff tech; it's a little too easy to tip into problematic power levels. I favor Routine Actions and Extra Skill Points (divided into Localized Everyday Skills & Profession Skills) for Humans. They live in the corporeal world, it's quite familiar to them. A lifetime on earth should account with some familiarity with how it should work. For celestials, I use the guideline that Skills/Songs don't get greater than 3-4 levels at creation (though I love listening to PC designs that argue for exceptions). I also use disturbance in tens of yards, instead of just yards. And during play, I make celestials roll considerably more for everyday tasks -- unless they bought something close via Roles or Skills. Human society keeps humans in check; use human and celestial society to keep celestials in check. With Character Point awards, I am very tight-fisted. At least 1 CP, but rarely more than that unless a mission was finished in a very positive way &/or role played well. I also try alternative rewards, such as in-game role play rewards (information, informal titles, contacts, informal status, etc). This is perhaps the toughest recommendation for new GMs: Don't run In Nomine as a D&D dungeon crawl, with a united party. Party's are powerful forces, first off. Second, it often doesn't make sense. A diverse clutch of celestials will have many competing motivations -- and those motivations should win out over "party unity" often. If players get lazy about this, that's what punishments are for. Punish players who put "PC party" over Superior demands and individual responsibilities/survival. Break that bad habit immediately, and you'll rapidly notice how potent villains will be again.

12-17-2010, 03:30 AM	#3
darksaba Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Cardiff UK	Re: "Broken" IN Characters I see In Nomine as a "great power with severe limitations" game, similar to Vampire the Masquerade. Sure you have power beyond that of mear mortals. Charcaters can throw cars arround like they're toys, alter the fabric of reality on a whim and generally be badass to an absurd degree. The limitation is that of you use any of your cool tricks then you are going to come to the attention of someone with a lot more power than you, and they're going to ask awkard questions. __________________ Whats worse, thinking you're paranoid, or knowing you should be? Google+

12-17-2010, 10:52 AM	#4
Jason Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Boston, MA	Re: "Broken" IN Characters (This post got really long while I wasn't paying attention. I think the summary version is: Character creation in the core rules is actually pretty well point balanced, but a free vessel isn't unreasonable. If you give more points to start with, I don't recommend going over 40-42 or so, with some limitations on what points should be spent on depending on the needs of your adventure/setting. And, for goodness' sake, do not let your players use LC songs that have a burning feather next to the name. Read on for the long version.) Since I picked up IN again in recent years, I have run two multi-meeting adventures. I think coming up with a "power level" that works for your players is something you need to feel out, but it's better to start everyone underpowered and then give them stuff than it is to start them overpowered and struggle to catch up (or, worse, take stuff away from them, making your players sad). In an adventure where everybody played 9-Force angels, I kept to the core rules pretty closely. I made disturbance easier for me to calculate, and I allowed players to pick "common" songs from Liber Canticorum (WITHOUT burning feather icons—the Song of Symphony is for plot devices, NOT player use, as far as I am concerned). Most PCs did not take many mundane skills like Driving, but remember that you can still drive even without the skill—the skill is for special feats of driving, like car chases. To start with, they were only allowed to choose attunements from the Superior(s) they served directly. As for rewards, everyone got 1-2 character points after each meeting. Between meetings, they were able to save up points to spend later, or they could spend 1 point on any Skill or Song they attempted to use (successfully or not) in that meeting. So, no giving yourself the Seduction skill out of nowhere; you've got to practice! At the end of the game, everybody got a couple extra points (totaling 10 over the entire adventure), and got some extra options of Archangels they could buy attunements from (e.g., Marc and Yves were happy with everybody, Novalis was happy with certain people, David was happy with others, etc.). Everyone also got a bonus award from their respective Archangel that reflected that they did a good job but were also slightly embarrassing to their Superior in some ways. One character, for instance, was given Divine Destiny by Yves, kind of to suggest "this is a reward but also a reminder to do your job better and not screw up people's lives." He was stripped of his Bound Discord, but also given the Merciful Discord (as he was playing a Mercurian who drew a gun on human beings). Another character was given a Vassal distinction, but it was (or will be next time we play) very obvious that this was due to political considerations to hide how badly some things were mishandled. In other words, everyone in my game got 10 points over the course of the adventure to spend on goodies they liked, and another "thing" that was as much a message to them as it was a reward. After I ran this, I had a better idea of how the power of characters worked out, so I felt more comfortable making up house rules for character creation. The next campaign I ran was for the same group of players, each playing a 6-7 Force human, demon, or ethereal. Because of the needs of this setting, I gave everyone who needed one a free Role and a free level-1 Vessel, and everybody got bonus points covering the difference in starting points between a 6- or 7-Force character and a 10-Force character. Those bonus points had to be spent, however, on skills and knowledge related to their mundane lives, not on Songs or combat-oriented skills (unless they were cops or something). I encouraged them to spend some of the rest of their points on attunements (and affinities, for the ethereal), as they were all renegades/freelancers rather than working for a Superior, and wouldn't get another chance to pick up attunements easily. That campaign is supposed to feel lower-powered, and it met slightly more often, so I only gave 1 character point per meeting, with a smaller bonus at the end (e.g., a small artifact to each person, and a discount on Theft attunements, as Valefor plays an unusual role in the non-canonical setting I'm using). I think both approaches felt okay in balance power-wise, but my players seemed to prefer the second set of characters a lot better. I'm not sure if that's because demons' and humans' powers are more fun to them than angels' powers, because the setting is just more interesting to them (I do a better job with a place I actually lived than a place I made up), or because I kept a tighter leash on how they spent their character points.

12-17-2010, 11:24 AM	#5
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: "Broken" IN Characters There is something to be said for the learning curve, for both the GM & Players. That's why I find being overly generous with CP early can lead to confusion and dissatisfaction. There'd be a "keeping up with the Jones'" effect, along with a lack of time to become familiar with what you got, if everyone is being showered with CP. Further, using reality (and props) helps ground campaigns, freeing GM "processing power". That's why I like to use reality as inspiration. A sharp GM who can set boundaries and apply (believable) discipline gains the respect of players -- and in turn helps players manage the nebulous game world. (The Revelations Cycle books are pretty good at this Background grounding, btw. GURPS is even better.) Imagination is a lot like the Marches, giving strong landmarks and coherent rules makes for a more relatable and digestible experience.

12-17-2010, 03:28 PM	#6
PenitentDemon Join Date: Aug 2008	Re: "Broken" IN Characters I usualy give about 2 CP on average(had maybe 8 sessions to be fair) one thing to keep in mind, is unlike White wolf games, Costs in in nomine dont increase geometricly. thus 4 CP is a lot, enough to buy a charachteristic. Im having a problem of my own with NPC Design... Im trying to design some NPC Villains, and allies, and would like some advice on... how much is probaly "too much" for a NPC Villains songs, attunements, etc. As its easy to keep adding another attunement or song whenever you feel like it currently its a one on one game, me and a reliever (mentioned it before I know) thing is any feelings as I have liber canticorium and some songs ARE QUITE powerful. Ideas on how to know if Im assigning too much to a NPC (since they dont have a CAP, as such) it seems very tempting to go overboard and give them "just one more song" etc. it can be hard to know which songs they should have at what level and what attunements. Especialy, some songs, (other then the ones listed for relievers and demonlings) can look "just right" The song of nightmares, from liber canticorium looks good for a demonling in beleths service, is a no brainer. (Im sorry for repeating myself) Last edited by PenitentDemon; 12-17-2010 at 03:42 PM.

12-17-2010, 07:10 PM	#9
PenitentDemon Join Date: Aug 2008	Re: "Broken" IN Characters I got liber servitorium a week ago actually, lol. I've looked through it, Then got the ethereal guide to make sense of the way demonlings are described...

12-18-2010, 01:01 PM	#10
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: "Broken" IN Characters Probably the best way to go about NPCs needing more stuff is -- add another NPC! :) Yeah, it could come off as GM fiat, but if kept pretty judiciously, adding another NPC for a cameo appearance is just as good as adding more buffs to a campaign villain. Even better, it's easier to control because that NPC can just as easily be removed. Use those geases, have some Lilim call for some heavy hitters for your villain. Or have him use regular favors and call for occasional backup. And you don't have to have full character sheets for these walk-on NPCs. They could just as easily be the "Specialist Song of Thunder!" that just walks on, does their thing, mess with the PCs, and then walks off. If the PCs want to delve more into the villain's relationships, or chase down those temp characters, then yeah you'll need a character sheet. But otherwise, no.