Making Combat Art and Combat Sport different?

[Cheomesh]

Just a minor thing, which may have come up in a supplement that I either read and forgot, or haven't gotten to yet.

For fun, I'm creating a setting based on a spin-off of Tokugawa era Japan, geared more to a short campaign with a small number of sessions where the players perform some exploration in potentially hostile territory for their Daimyo.

I decided to play up the transition of combat training from practical applications towards more artistic, peacetime forms. Combat pragmatism is now the way of low class spearmen (who as a campaign rule can't start with an actual weapon skill that's very high) and the esoteric methods of the martial monks (who are secluded and have their own holdups). Samurai now put a lot of stock in showy swordsmanship, which may have a core of useful practical applications but are layered over with flash and misinterpretation - Combat Art. While violent duels do happen, ugly (pragmatic) display that exploits an opponents artfulness is a sure fire way to be ordered to cut oneself open. It's been 300 or so years of peace, so all the old veterans are long gone, which further cements this mentality. Yeah, I am aware this will disadvantage them in combat, but I have designed potential enemies and certain player boons with this in mind - may players aren't immediately set up for failure.

Anyways enough longwinded stuff, if you're interested I can link you my design ramble - this is my first go at making a Japanese-based campaign, though.

The real question: Has anyone used some rules to separate Combat Art and Combat Sport? I was considering maybe allowing Combat Sport open up the ability to have Combat Reflexes (which in my imagining should be -quite- unusual), representing actual experience with fight-or-flight response management. I also considered giving Art a higher penalty in combat than Sport, for similar reasons (and sport having more pragmatism than Art). Unfortunately, that makes Sport the no-brainer choice, as I haven't figured something realistic-ish to allow Art practitioners to benefit from, beyond some kind of social boon...which is of limited value here.

What have you guys done to make Combat Art and Sport different? It's not necessary, but the essence of GURPS is messing with some of this stuff (and stating up psychic blueberry muffins).

Thanks,

M.

[Zeta Blaze]

If you have any estoric combat abilities that real combat could have then let combat Art get those and combat sport can access all the mundane benefits like combat reflexes and better stats.
You could also make combat art better at analyzing opponents and understanding any unusual things they do I may also give them the edge on reading an opponent in say a faint.

So what you have is pick two of social acceptable, mundane combat ability, estoric wushu combat tricks.

[Flyndaran]

I imagine to those not well versed in what hand to hand combat looks like, Art forms probably look more effective and useful than Sports or even actual Combat sparring.

[Varyon]

Here's a set of ideas, off the top of my head.

First, you've established that there are rules for dueling. This means dueling is going to primarily use Combat Sport, at no penalty. If you're going with "Sport translates to combat better than Art," I'd say Combat Art is at -2 in a duel, -5 in combat (Sport is still at -3 in Combat, as normal, and I'd probably actually have it be at -4 for Art applications).

Combat Sport can justify mundane traits like Combat Reflexes and the like, while Combat Art might justify traits that would be useful for showing off - higher DX, higher Move, etc.

As for Techniques, I'd go with kendo (even if it's probably from the wrong time period) for Sports. Counterattack, Feint/Beat, and Targeted Attack (Swing/Arm, Swing/Skull, and Thrust/Neck) are all appropriate. For Art, katas are going to involve a lot of specialized movement and the like, as well as precise actions. Low Fighting, Springing Attack, and possibly Targeted Attack (Swing/Neck, Thrust/Vitals) might be appropriate, amongst others. Art is also more likely to incorporate things like Fast Draw, Reverse Grip, Combinations, and so forth.

If you use Setup Attacks (Pyramid #3/52), Sport should have access to those, while Art might be able to use my support Setups.

For general combat, Sport and Art are probably equally likely to make use of Deceptive Attack (Sport for practical reasons, Art to represent sheer speed). Sport is likely to restrict itself to upper-body attacks, while you can expect Art to have no such restrictions - this may give general foes a +1 to defend against Sport attacks (they're predictable). Sport is also more likely to emphasize one-on-one combat, such that using the One Foe option from Technical Grappling may be the rule for Sport, while Art wouldn't use that option - although Art is likely to incorporate a lot of Telegraphic Attacks.

[ArchonShiva]

If you're not going with Zeta Blaze's esoteric distinction (which seems like the obvious choice if esoteric abilities do exist), I would take Varyon's penalties (Art is -2 to sport, -5 to real combat), but give art more versatility:

Combat Sport is a pragmatic, no-nonsense style which cannot improve techniques from their default, and may not use techniques so complicated as to have no default.

Combat Art practices elabrorate katas and flourishes, so it can improve techniques normally. It will still rate rather poorly in real combat, but you can get some specific tricky moves higher than Combat Sport would.

Also, I suppose your setting assumes Telegraphic Attacks pretty much all around? Combat Art could get an "improved worse" TA at +6 and +3 defense - the additional +2 to hit doesn't break anything, as it only compensates the -2 for real combat.

Or, eschewing everything I've said above, you could make Combat Art inherently deceptive - make any attack with it give -1 to defenses (which doesn't make it better than the real skill since you get -3 for Combat Art anyway).

[Xplo]

I'm having a really hard time picturing how this works. Do people actually fight using these skills? Are the fights super ritualized and symbolic, or are they fighting to serious injury or death?

Because you can say whatever you want about practical combat techniques being dishonorable, but all that's going to result in is brutal, dishonorable samurai and a lot of dead people whose ghosts are deeply offended that someone had the gall to stab them in the ribs while they were busy executing a perfect Summer Afternoon Butterfly Swarm technique. In matters of life and death, there's not going to be a bright line determining whether a move is beautiful enough to use.

[Zeta Blaze]

@Xplo If i understand things correctly yes people will use these skills in real fights for 3 reasons.
One duels will be fought for reasons besides killing even duels explicitly to the death. These duels will have witnesses and killing without honor is a loss so the dead guy wins and his lord gets the win you get disgraced and have to commit sepuku. Sport and art both have no penalty to following the honorable fight but regular skills do I also assume the penalty for real combat skills playing by the dueling rules is comparable to or grater than the penalty to use sport in real combat.
Two duels that dont go to the death are a thing and if they are part of the purpose of dueling rules is to minimize accidental maiming and death in non to the death fights.
There that is what Cheomesh wants for the setting and he wants setting switches to make it mechanically supported.

point two gives me that it would make sense for both combat sport and combat art to contain techniques for easily harming your opponent in non lasting ways at an advantage to there normal combat version but that these attacks only work so well if both people play by the rules.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Zeta Blaze

These duels will have witnesses and killing without honor is a loss so the dead guy wins and his lord gets the win you get disgraced and have to commit sepuku.

Why commit seppuku? Just kill everyone and take over. What are they going to do, twirl themselves at you? Strike poses while you strike them down?

You have to keep in mind that Combat Art is not an effective fighting skill. Imagine two people demonstrating kata at each other and hoping the other accidentally steps into their fist.

[Zeta Blaze]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Why commit seppuku?

because your lord and everyone else demands it for stupid cultural reasons, and even if you can take 5-20 dudes at once by yourself you won't be able to mount an effective government and the only other people with real combat skills are Ninja (we assume chronic backstabbing included), and bandits. So it is advantageous to maintain your social position to fight this way. and if you do take over this way all the other lords will see you as an honor less usurper and cut you down economically and through social diplomacy if not military. Or you turn into Nobunaga Oda.

I an AFB and dont recall the penalties off the top of my head but IIRC the default from combat art to real combat is less than the untrained default and also allows having techniques higher than default.

None of this applies if no one catches you and applies less in open battle especially against non samuri. and non samuri dont have this limitation but do have other culturally imposed limits on military power.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Why commit seppuku? Just kill everyone and take over. What are they going to do, twirl themselves at you? Strike poses while you strike them down?

You have to keep in mind that Combat Art is not an effective fighting skill. Imagine two people demonstrating kata at each other and hoping the other accidentally steps into their fist.

An effective skill difference of 2-5 thanks to penalties to Sport/Art versions of skills in combat seems extremely underwhelming in the face of hordes of people who see you as a dishonourable menace not just to your clan, but to the whole of Nihon.

Plus, you disgrace your clan, so if you die in battle continuing your dishonourable ways, they will be in trouble after your death. Do you want your loved ones to suffer?