GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Besides which, in a fantasy context – and indeed, in an RPG context – ninja stopped being "Japanese" or even "Asian" a couple of decades ago. These days, fantasy needs ninja or ninja stand-ins to be taken seriously. That's why Peter Jackson turned Tolkien's elves into freakin' ninja, for instance, and why you have glorified ninja showing up under the label "assassin" in Diablo II and in fact as far afield as Borderlands 2 . . .

OK, but I still say that by eliminating the "Japan" from the ninja you are taking some the coolness away.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by b-dog

OK, but I still say that by eliminating the "Japan" from the ninja you are taking some the coolness away.

I thought most of the "coolness" of the ninja was that they were exotic. You don't need to explain their homeland in depth to have them be outsiders - in fact, explaining it would tend to do the opposite.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I thought most of the "coolness" of the ninja was that they were exotic. You don't need to explain their homeland in depth to have them be outsiders - in fact, explaining it would tend to do the opposite.

Plus it's easy enough to tack it back on. By not defining what culture they come from, but otherwise hanging Japanese weaponry and Japanese names on it, we free you up to define it as you need to.

If you can't fit the Ninja in DF12 into a mythic "Japan" with minimal work, I'm afraid I can't help you. The serial numbers have been filed off but I didn't even black the name out on the product, you know?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I thought most of the "coolness" of the ninja was that they were exotic. You don't need to explain their homeland in depth to have them be outsiders - in fact, explaining it would tend to do the opposite.

Precisely. Barbarians might be nothing but Vikings with the horns filed off, but what makes them cool is their distant origin in some land of axes, buffness, and thick accents. Bards and druids are cool for being from some vague, faraway time or place where people dye themselves blue and build stone circles. I kid, I kid – I know history better than that! You get the point, though: the important part is "not part of the default narrative, and therefore exotic and cool."

It's like ethnic restaurants being cool because of the exotic tastes, not because anybody much cares to learn about the ethnicity – or like world music being cool because of the exotic sounds, not because anybody bothers to go learn about where they come from. Sure, there are people for whom an in-depth exploration adds coolness. However, for every one of them, there are 10 who find unexplained mysteriousness more alluring.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's like ethnic restaurants being cool because of the exotic tastes, not because anybody much cares to learn about the ethnicity – or like world music being cool because of the exotic sounds, not because anybody bothers to go learn about where they come from. Sure, there are people for whom an in-depth exploration adds coolness. However, for every one of them, there are 10 who find unexplained mysteriousness more alluring.

In an ethnic restaurant they have all the trappings of their culture in the form of decorations. These decorations are chosen because they are what is cool or beautiful about their culture and they add to the dining experience.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by b-dog

In an ethnic restaurant they have all the trappings of their culture in the form of decorations. These decorations are chosen because they are what is cool or beautiful about their culture and they add to the dining experience.

But the decorations and ambiance are flavor not a serious attempt at demonstrating the culture.
GURPS Japan and GURPS China were published and are setting books.
DF: Ninja is just another template or stereotype not a serious effort at educating or bringing the culture to the game.
DF is supposed to be flexible so any effort at making it Asia seems to be counter to that product line. Anyone who wants to use DF in a Asia based setting could simply use one of those books. Same could be set for any of the setting books.

[b-dog]

Anyway I was only giving my opinion about what would make DF Ninja sell more books. If there was a DF book or adventure that had Asian magic items, Asian DF monsters and some way to bring the Forbidden East into the DF realm then I believe that DF Ninja would sell a lot more. This is just my opinion.

EDIT: I would like to give an example of how ethnic stuff is important to shaping how things operate in fantasy. Consider the vampire, he does not like garlic because garlic is considered a healing herb in European folkore which repels against disease. But in another folklore garlic may not be seen that way and there so their undead will not be affected by it. The culture and context is often important in the way the world work. Especially in DF where many cultures are mashed together.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by b-dog

EDIT: I would like to give an example of how ethnic stuff is important to shaping how things operate in fantasy. Consider the vampire, he does not like garlic because garlic is considered a healing herb in European folkore which repels against disease. But in another folklore garlic may not be seen that way and there so their undead will not be affected by it. The culture and context is often important in the way the world work. Especially in DF where many cultures are mashed together.

Actually that is open to interpretation.
Garlic repels mosquitoes and I think that is also a possible reason for that idea.
Not trying to be difficult but showing there are more then one possibility for many Myths and such.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Refplace

DF: Ninja is just another template or stereotype not a serious effort at educating or bringing the culture to the game.

Yes, exactly. I wrote this precisely because I just wanted to have a book on cool dungeon-delving ninja like my players always bothered me about running. They didn't do it because of deep interest in Japanese culture (that kid ran a samurai) but because they wanted to be Sho Kosugi or Lee Van Cleef or any other TV or movie ninja. DF12 is unselfconsciously the book for those guys, and those characters.

Originally Posted by b-dog

Anyway I was only giving my opinion about what would make DF Ninja sell more books.

And I appreciate that! I just think the book already covers some of what you want, and that we'd be better off stocking future DFM books with oni and tanuki and tengu and kyojin and kobito instead of trying anything serious in terms of a worldbook. GURPS Japan and GURPS China already do that well enough if you need setting details.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

...or Lee Van Cleef...

Heavens, why?