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Old 07-11-2019, 06:42 AM   #31
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: Increasing the Cost of Purchasing Spells

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Plagues in 550 and 1300's are known to have killed 30% of whole continent populations. 50% of whole populations. Absolutely incredible scales of death. Well beyond the impact of war.

I think you are completely underestimating how radically different it would be if there were some way to literally wave away diseases. Bear in mind that Cleanse goes well beyond our modern day capabilities.

Any wizard is likely to focus on IQ, especially if they're not adventuring since the money and respect is going to be in the higher level spells. And in the real world (not the brief life of an adventurer running straight into danger), the most useful and most learned spells would almost certainly include the healing ones. In my opinion.

And if there was just one spell that someone might learn in 'every two bit town' I'm going to guess it would be Cleanse.
How many people can you treat in one day? The plague killed people that showed symptoms within 4-7 days. One or two people show up, sure a single wizard could cure them. 100+ showing up in a tightly packed area? Not so much.

But again, it isn't something that everyone would have access to. Hell, an entire village might get wiped out before word reached the city with a wizard.
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Old 07-11-2019, 06:46 AM   #32
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: Increasing the Cost of Purchasing Spells

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I have to say this sounds like a very 'modern american' viewpoint - not one I share.

If it's a matter of a couple of weeks wages, or death, I think you'll find people will be able to beg borrow or steal $40, or sell something, or promise to work for someone for a week, or just get a little wages advance or borrow it from family.

A weeks wages or death. And you think people are too dumb and useless to scrape that together?!
Weird, considering I live in Scotland.

But they make a great case point, since ancient settings (and some modern ones) don't have the foresight to set up an enlightened healthcare service.

I think people would want to, but I think the plague kills you in 4-7 days, so no, you don't have time to save up money when you suddenly demonstrate symptoms.

three weeks of wages means no food for the time it takes to pay for and recover from the spell. If the disease isn't imminently fatal, being homeless and without food for your family takes priority. I think you are underestimating how hard it is to live at a subsistence level.
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:20 PM   #33
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Increasing the Cost of Purchasing Spells

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Sorry! You were the one saying Cidri would have cities with populations like modern Tokyo, in multi millions.

Are you arguing against yourself now? :)
Handling illness is a necessary condition for population growth but it's not a sufficient condition for it. There are too many other possible threats to life.

Large populations are possible but not guaranteed.

I'm not actually arguing for a position because I'm not even sure what the positions are and medicine is only one of many variables.
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Old 07-12-2019, 03:54 AM   #34
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Increasing the Cost of Purchasing Spells

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Originally Posted by Tywyll View Post
I think the plague kills you in 4-7 days, so no, you don't have time to save up money
None of the options I mentioned involved saving up - though it is pretty obviously what people would do, ahead of time.

Pre-war (pre-NHS) it was very common here (south coastal U.K.) for people to have some money put aside for the doctor, should one be needed in an emergency. We are talking about $40, the cost of a backpack, to cure a family (huddled together) of all disease, perhaps saving 4-5 lives and stopping the spread of a lethal contagion.

Last edited by MikMod; 07-21-2019 at 01:22 AM.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:26 AM   #35
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: Increasing the Cost of Purchasing Spells

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None of the options I mentioned involved saving up - though it is pretty obviously what people would do, ahead of time.
Other than borrowing, how do you not save up?

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Pre-war (pre-NHS) it was very common here (south coastal U.K.) for people to have some money put aside for the doctor, should one be needed in an emergency. We are talking about $40, the cost of a backpack, to cure a family (huddled together) of all disease, perhaps saving 4-5 lives.
Regeneration won't cure the family, just one person. And who do you cure if all of you have it but aren't showing symptoms yet? That family becomes $160-$200 worth of expense to cure, especially if we are talking about a plague-like disease.

Would magic dramatically change things? Sure, of course. Would it get rid of all disease and make societies super huge? Not likely.
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Old 07-15-2019, 10:42 AM   #36
warhorse11h
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Increasing the Cost of Purchasing Spells

A few thoughts

Physicker and Master Physicker both have to use their abilities within 1 hour of the injury. Also, their abilities seem targeted toward wounds, not sickness.

Revival requires a mostly intact body that has been dead less than an hour. If limbs are missing, the die roll for revival requires an extra die to be effective. It does not restore missing limbs. It also costs 50 ST.

Regeneration requires a 15 IQ to learn, costs 30 ST and further requires a week of bedrest to be effective. The mercenaries guild provides bedrest for $250 a week. ITL does say they are on the high side for non guild members. The language in the spell description tends to support the idea that the spell fails if the requisite bedrest is not completed.

Cleansing costs 20 ST per hex cleaned and puts 1D6 damage on any one cleansed in this way. If they are plague ridden and normal people, not strong brave adventurers, it may kill them.

All of these spells are powerful enough that it would make sense they would not be tried by anyone without a DX high enough to guarantee success. Minimum 15 for best possible likelihood. A human wizard with IQ 15 and DX 15 and minimum ST of 8 is still a 38 point character and therefore a trifle on the rare side.

Allegedly, the game takes place in what is a medieval to renaissance time period where the majority of people lived in a subsistence economy and would be unlikely to ever see $40 at any one time in their life.

It seems a simple enough house rule to bring Regeneration in line with Revival and the Physicker talents and require that the Regeneration spell be applied within one hour of the loss of the limb/organ.

Having said all the above, I intend to keep it rare for this kind of healing and expensive as well. Others may do as they wish.

Last edited by warhorse11h; 07-15-2019 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 07-15-2019, 11:38 AM   #37
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Increasing the Cost of Purchasing Spells

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Originally Posted by warhorse11h View Post
Cleansing costs 20 ST per hex cleaned and puts 1D6 damage on any one cleansed in this way. If they are plague ridden and normal people, not strong brave adventurers, it may kill them.
It also doesn't prevent re-infection, so in a highly contagious plague situation, it might be tricky to use to cure much of a population.


Quote:
Originally Posted by warhorse11h View Post
All of these spells are powerful enough that it would make sense they would not be tried by anyone without a DX high enough to guarantee success. Minimum 15 for best possible likelihood. A human wizard with IQ 15 and DX 15 and minimum ST of 8 is still a 38 point character and therefore a trifle on the rare side.
Well, unless the RAW description lacks any consequences other than 1 fatigue for miscasting the spell.

Adding serious consequences of failed rolls is one of my favorite ways of discouraging over-use of healing-type spells.


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Originally Posted by warhorse11h View Post
It seems a simple enough house rule to bring Regeneration in line with Revival and the Physicker talents and require that the Regeneration spell be applied within one hour of the loss of the limb/organ.
Yes. That would help fix the "One-Armed Bill is a fool for not getting his arm re-grown" aspect. It would also add a potentially fun/interesting/immersive situation where a character loses a limb in a city and then there's a race against time to try to find a wizard willing and able to cast the spell in time.

One could require the severed limb, and call it "Reattachment" ... although I guess that name would be inappropriate for crushed limbs.
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Old 07-15-2019, 01:48 PM   #38
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Increasing the Cost of Purchasing Spells

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Yes. That would help fix the "One-Armed Bill is a fool for not getting his arm re-grown" aspect. It would also add a potentially fun/interesting/immersive situation where a character loses a limb in a city and then there's a race against time to try to find a wizard willing and able to cast the spell in time.

One could require the severed limb, and call it "Reattachment" ... although I guess that name would be inappropriate for crushed limbs.
I have a preservation theurgy ceremony that helps with those time limits and, I think, can also be good for story hooks. If a group member dies and you put them under preservation, you have to carry the corpse around until you can get to a wizard, potentially redoing the ceremony whenever the time runs out (also it uses up a ceremony each time so that's annoying for the theurge player).
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