Helltongue hack

Matthias Wasser · 09-24-2012, 10:25 AM

In IN, there's a language where you can't lie. This is kinda cool, as an isolate fact, but it has screwy effects on the setting. You might like those effects, but let's say you don't. You might also be fine with just dropping it, but let's say you also like the idea that there's something metaphysically interesting about Angelic* and Helltongue that ties into the ideologies of the War and so on.

Here's a simple solution: in Angelic, utterances are always truth-apt; it's such an incredibly precise language that statements are always either exactly true or exactly false. You can lie, and you can even give statements that are true but misleading, but you can't equivocate or BS.

Whereas Helltongue? Truth-apt? Hah! I'd give you one guess on that one, but who needs it? The essential thing is, there's no "there" there; while Angelic states, Helltongue expresses. To what "propositions" do dog barks "correspond?" Do dogs have trouble communicating? Would they if there were operating on a whole other level? Exclaim, inquire, cajole, seduce, imply, bully, jest, evoke, advertise, so on and et cetera; should be enough for anybody. When you think about it, it's the more honest language, conceptually speaking.

One consequence of this is that in Angelic everything is expressed in the declarative mood, even commands and inquiries. Commands take the form of stating that someone has a morally sufficient reason to do something; unlike humans, angels naturally trust each others' stated intuitions as much as their own, so this "works:" if a Servitor has exhausted her good faith counterarguments to the necessity of her Archangel's proposal, and the Archangel isn't convinced, she'll tend to assume that the Archangel's greater wisdom here is more likely correct than her own lingering doubts, and so carry out the mission voluntarily. The angelic hierarchy, then, is based on voluntary recognition of expertise segmented by broad philosophical viewpoint, rather than legal compulsion as humans would understand it; angels who won't get with the program are destroyed or reeducated for seeming to be in rebellion against their own conscience, rather than external authority, or for having a conscience that is defective.

Another consequence is that Angelic is much better at scientific description, while Helltongue is much better at expressing the ambiguities of the human and/or demonic heart. Naturally Archangel Vapula does not object to the Lord's Own Speech, although Helltongue is still dominant even in Tartarus, and may be part of why, relative to Lightning, Technology's conception of science is based far more on personal vision and individual genius.

*Or Celestial, or whatever it's called; I haven't looked at the books in some time.

tHEhERETIC · 10-01-2012, 04:38 AM

I've taken a different tack. I don't remember where I read it, but it seems to me it's possible to speak Helltongue in corporeal form, but that one can manage tiny snippets of Celestial at best in that form. (Probably in Sup:Michael). I followed this and gave one particularly aware human the ability to say some limited things in Helltongue--basic tourist phrases and a couple of swearwords.

Rolling with this thought and the Celestial-can't-lie idea, I figured that Celestial is saying multiple things at once. There's the main sentence, then the subtext, then sometimes a commentary. It's as if a hyperactive person was forced to voice the thoughts that came with the words rather than just the words. So "I have four aces" becomes
"I have four cards facing me that are not aces you'll call bull why are we even playing bluffing card games?" Sort of a verbal bulimia if you will, except the whole sentence took only the amount of time it would take to say the simple sentence, and all the smaller fonts came out like a batch of choirboys standing behind the card player.

Difficult to describe but wicked fun to play. My angel characters are constantly complaining to me that I'm giving their secrets away and could we please keep the action on the ground where this isn't a liability?

alexondria · 10-01-2012, 05:25 AM

Another consequence you have with certain players is they will do things like take their list of suspects up to Heaven and start at the top and go down the list trying to say that each one is guilty until they sucessfuly manage to say it. This is what forced me to say that Angelic always has a silent, "as far as I know" or "to the best of my knowledge" in front of your statements.

tHEhERETIC · 10-01-2012, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexondria

Another consequence you have with certain players is they will do things like take their list of suspects up to Heaven and start at the top and go down the list trying to say that each one is guilty until they sucessfuly manage to say it. This is what forced me to say that Angelic always has a silent, "as far as I know" or "to the best of my knowledge" in front of your statements.

Yep. Kind of went through that with my brother (He's crazy. Literally.) He thought he was lying if he said something that wasn't true--nevermind whether he knew it was true or not. Angels, like my brother, are not omniscient.

Matthias Wasser · 10-01-2012, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexondria

Another consequence you have with certain players is they will do things like take their list of suspects up to Heaven and start at the top and go down the list trying to say that each one is guilty until they sucessfuly manage to say it. This is what forced me to say that Angelic always has a silent, "as far as I know" or "to the best of my knowledge" in front of your statements.

Ha! I remember once on an old conlang list there was a joke about a language where only true statements were grammatical, such that "linguists are currently diagramming sentences in an effort to discover the laws of physics."

09-24-2012, 10:25 AM	#1
Matthias Wasser Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Boston	Helltongue hack In IN, there's a language where you can't lie. This is kinda cool, as an isolate fact, but it has screwy effects on the setting. You might like those effects, but let's say you don't. You might also be fine with just dropping it, but let's say you also like the idea that there's something metaphysically interesting about Angelic* and Helltongue that ties into the ideologies of the War and so on. Here's a simple solution: in Angelic, utterances are always truth-apt; it's such an incredibly precise language that statements are always either exactly true or exactly false. You can lie, and you can even give statements that are true but misleading, but you can't equivocate or BS. Whereas Helltongue? Truth-apt? Hah! I'd give you one guess on that one, but who needs it? The essential thing is, there's no "there" there; while Angelic states, Helltongue expresses. To what "propositions" do dog barks "correspond?" Do dogs have trouble communicating? Would they if there were operating on a whole other level? Exclaim, inquire, cajole, seduce, imply, bully, jest, evoke, advertise, so on and et cetera; should be enough for anybody. When you think about it, it's the more honest language, conceptually speaking. One consequence of this is that in Angelic everything is expressed in the declarative mood, even commands and inquiries. Commands take the form of stating that someone has a morally sufficient reason to do something; unlike humans, angels naturally trust each others' stated intuitions as much as their own, so this "works:" if a Servitor has exhausted her good faith counterarguments to the necessity of her Archangel's proposal, and the Archangel isn't convinced, she'll tend to assume that the Archangel's greater wisdom here is more likely correct than her own lingering doubts, and so carry out the mission voluntarily. The angelic hierarchy, then, is based on voluntary recognition of expertise segmented by broad philosophical viewpoint, rather than legal compulsion as humans would understand it; angels who won't get with the program are destroyed or reeducated for seeming to be in rebellion against their own conscience, rather than external authority, or for having a conscience that is defective. Another consequence is that Angelic is much better at scientific description, while Helltongue is much better at expressing the ambiguities of the human and/or demonic heart. Naturally Archangel Vapula does not object to the Lord's Own Speech, although Helltongue is still dominant even in Tartarus, and may be part of why, relative to Lightning, Technology's conception of science is based far more on personal vision and individual genius. *Or Celestial, or whatever it's called; I haven't looked at the books in some time.

10-01-2012, 04:38 AM	#2
tHEhERETIC MIB Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Life imitates art--I'm in Pohang	Re: Helltongue hack I've taken a different tack. I don't remember where I read it, but it seems to me it's possible to speak Helltongue in corporeal form, but that one can manage tiny snippets of Celestial at best in that form. (Probably in Sup:Michael). I followed this and gave one particularly aware human the ability to say some limited things in Helltongue--basic tourist phrases and a couple of swearwords. Rolling with this thought and the Celestial-can't-lie idea, I figured that Celestial is saying multiple things at once. There's the main sentence, then the subtext, then sometimes a commentary. It's as if a hyperactive person was forced to voice the thoughts that came with the words rather than just the words. So "I have four aces" becomes "I have four cards facing me that are not aces you'll call bull why are we even playing bluffing card games?" Sort of a verbal bulimia if you will, except the whole sentence took only the amount of time it would take to say the simple sentence, and all the smaller fonts came out like a batch of choirboys standing behind the card player. Difficult to describe but wicked fun to play. My angel characters are constantly complaining to me that I'm giving their secrets away and could we please keep the action on the ground where this isn't a liability? __________________ Criminy...these two have enough issues, they can sell subscriptions! (ladyarcana55, in a PM)

10-01-2012, 05:25 AM	#3
alexondria Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Atlanta GA	Re: Helltongue hack Another consequence you have with certain players is they will do things like take their list of suspects up to Heaven and start at the top and go down the list trying to say that each one is guilty until they sucessfuly manage to say it. This is what forced me to say that Angelic always has a silent, "as far as I know" or "to the best of my knowledge" in front of your statements.