Gm limiting necromancy - Page 3

AlexanderHowl · 12-12-2017, 06:40 PM

Walking dead are a source of pestilence because they are rotting corpses, so the necromancer will face opposition in the form of the local nobles and the local priest(s). In a Christian nation, the local bishops will likely excommunicate the necromancer and his companions, giving blanket forgiveness from the Church for any sins committed against the necromancer and his companions while the local nobles will offer a bounty on the heads of the necromancer and his companions. The campaign will quickly degenerate into the necromancer and his companions against the local authorities and will inevitably end up with the deaths of everyone in the party unless the GM is excessively generous.

Dalin · 12-12-2017, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Note that if you're using Gurps Magic animating the dead has nothing to do with this. You'd be using Summon Spirit rather than Zombie.

Depending on the family, though, getting dead relatives back as silent, obedient workers might be worth a lot more than yet-another-harangue in the séance tent...

Fred Brackin · 12-12-2017, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalin

Depending on the family, though, getting dead relatives back as silent, obedient workers might be worth a lot more than yet-another-harangue in the séance tent...

Nobody wants rotting corpses inside their house. Now, if this was an enhancement to capital punishment whee first they killed you and then they sent you to the mines.....

Dalin · 12-12-2017, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Nobody wants rotting corpses inside their house. Now, if this was an enhancement to capital punishment whee first they killed you and then they sent you to the mines.....

I like the latter option. But, if you were a homebody and you really wanted to see dear old dad put to work, there's always gardening. Really, a zombie gardner comes with its own compost and attracts pollinators to boot.

sir_pudding · 12-12-2017, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Note that if you're using Gurps Magic animating the dead has nothing to do with this. You'd be using Summon Spirit rather than Zombie.

Summon Spirit is also a necromancy spell.

Kromm · 12-12-2017, 08:05 PM

Speaking only of using Allies as a control on the size of undead hordes:

Deeply negative-valued zombies won't improve. The GM is free to rule that the Zombie spell cannot animate a servitor whose final value after applying the zombie "racial" template exceeds 0 points. This amounts to a statement that the Zombie spell can manage only so much "life force." It isn't a particularly costly or hard-to-learn spell, so that isn't a huge stretch. And scaling up 0 points as a 150-point necromancer reaches 666 or 1,234, or 23,005 points still gives . . . 0 points.

Remember that the player doesn't design Allies; like all NPCs, the GM designs them. The percentages are brackets, not guarantees; e.g., the GM is free to design a 2-point base cost Ally on anything greater than 25% of the PC's points, up to 50%, but is not in any way bound to give out 50% for the points. This applies to zombies, which the GM can always ensure remain well below whatever the bottom cutoff is: 25% in the Basic Set but 5% in GURPS Zombies.

Requiring that hordes of zombies be bought as Allies and linking the maximum number of Allies to level of Magery, Power Investiture, or an appropriate power Talent is a way to abstract the process of zombie maintenance: Zombies beyond the size of the group you've paid for are also beyond your "skill" as a necromancer to maintain and command. You can still have as many zombies as you like without paying for them as Allies, but the GM has no obligation to have the surplus zombies hear your orders or behave usefully.

This is simply extending a fairly fundamental principle of GURPS, which is that if you haven't paid points for it, you're not guaranteed to keep it. (And no, paying points for the Zombie spell doesn't count here, any more than paying points for Filch and Pickpocket – or Snatcher – means everything you steal becomes Signature Gear, or paying points for Charisma and talking the King into doing you a favor means the King is your Patron without the point cost.)

AlexanderHowl · 12-12-2017, 09:21 PM

Though they are all great excuses for spending character points on those traits.

Flyndaran · 12-12-2017, 11:18 PM

Controlling zombies is like herding cats. Beyond a certain number, they'll just wander around swatting and biting things. Very troublesome.

Even for in game reasoning, I like necromancers maintaining a required connection to their creations. Who hasn't heard of all the monsters dropping inert once the hero kills the wizard?

hal · 12-13-2017, 08:17 AM

I am loathe as a GM, to ever have to admit that I didn't think things through, and have to change how a spell works in mid-campaign. For me, that's a personal failure admitting that I should have done more work in preparing for the game world in which your character and any other character is playing within.

That having been said, there have been times where a player in a "Modern Fantasy" game has grown overly frustrated with the inhibitions against performing necromantic spell casting in a world with Judeo-Christian beliefs, not to mention other religions that have injunctions against trafficking with the dead.

So, if I were the GM of your campaign, I'd simply pull you aside and ask "Are you sure you want to do this?" I'd offer you an IQ+2 saving roll saying "The +2 bonus is for things EVERYONE knows" Fail that roll, and as GM, I'd keep my mouth shut" Miss by one, and I'd say "you have a bad feeling about this." Succeed, and I'd state simply "Society frowns upon necromantic spells in general, and the Church, ever ready to excommunicate someone, may use that against your character, or even send hunter teams known as inquisitors to hunt down servants of the Devil."

Then? I'd ask what the intent is of every necromantic spell cast in the eyes of the caster (ie you). Little by little, depending on what spells you cast and how you used your minons, I'd note that the "Aura" of your character is becoming stained. I'd ask "how religious is your character?"

In short? I wouldn't spring it on the player as a surprise, but I'd lead up to the whole "conflict" issues a little at a time. First, one person screams at the sight of the walking dead. Somewhere along the way, I'd make you roll against HT to avoid retching as the overly ripe bodies continued to decay (there is a reason that earthquake rescue workers wear bandannas over their mouths - bandannas soaked in gasoline I might add - rotting fresh corpses are no fun). Then, as others mention, there might be the issue of the ever present insects biting the flesh of the dead, and eventually biting the flesh of the living. If necromancy makes the flesh unappealing to the insects, it could be said to be a sign of the devil that keeps even the insects from consuming flesh as they normally might.

But here's the fun part in my eyes. How do YOU Get around those issues being raised? Maybe you might seek a patron who will shelter you for your deeds - and is willing to risk interdiction (think excommunication but for a region instead of a single person) just to protect your buttocks and protect them from being roasted in a fire? Maybe you might learn to shape your appearances to look different upon need so as to avoid the negative repercussions of your constant behavior of raising the dead? Maybe you decide to use illusion spells along with spells to mask the scents of rotting flesh? Maybe you use Illusion shell on the dead to make them appear as dim-witting living village idiots?

Every problem has the potential to be resolved with solutions.

hal · 12-13-2017, 08:27 AM

Once upon a time (don't you love such a start for a story?)

There was this player who loved playing mages. He was a very willful mage, and hated anyone exercising petty authority over him - much as might a city official state "you have to buy a license to practice magic" or "you need to pay taxes on the inn you want to buy" or what have you. In a fit of pique, said player had his highly trained mage (who also knew teleportation and other fun spells) whip up a batch of Alcahest (Universal Solvent). He then flew over the heads of the Empire's exiled prince (the emperor's brother that is) as well as the Empire's head religious official (think like Bishop or arch bishop) - and dropped the entire case load of the stuff.

Needless to say, said "Mage" became a wanted individual VERY quickly. So, the Mage's guild - knowing the wrath of the Emperor would be great indeed, hatched a plan to get the assassin and bring him to justice. They gathered together and in a vast circle, created a pebble with a link to it, along with the spell "Suspend Mana". So vast was the energy imparted into this simple pebble (which required the pebble be hurled to the ground with intent to activate the spell via the mouthing of a word) that it suspended mana in a 1/2 mile radius. All that was required, was that the Mage's friends signal to the city officials, that the murderer, the Assassin, was at their home - otherwise, the friends innocent of the assassination, would be punished for their association with the evil mage assassin.

Long story short? The pebble was hurled a short distance from the mage, all of his spells (including an enchanted item to reverse missiles) were useless, and the assassin was shot down in the streets like a common dog. The entire party turned on that mage.

Moral of the story? No matter how big your character gets, there will always be someone bigger, or the little guys will band together to take you down etc. And above all, retain the loyalty of the player characters you spend time with. If they turn against you, your days are numbered.

;)

12-12-2017, 06:40 PM	#21
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Gm limiting necromancy Walking dead are a source of pestilence because they are rotting corpses, so the necromancer will face opposition in the form of the local nobles and the local priest(s). In a Christian nation, the local bishops will likely excommunicate the necromancer and his companions, giving blanket forgiveness from the Church for any sins committed against the necromancer and his companions while the local nobles will offer a bounty on the heads of the necromancer and his companions. The campaign will quickly degenerate into the necromancer and his companions against the local authorities and will inevitably end up with the deaths of everyone in the party unless the GM is excessively generous.

12-12-2017, 08:05 PM	#26
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Gm limiting necromancy Speaking only of using Allies as a control on the size of undead hordes: Deeply negative-valued zombies won't improve. The GM is free to rule that the Zombie spell cannot animate a servitor whose final value after applying the zombie "racial" template exceeds 0 points. This amounts to a statement that the Zombie spell can manage only so much "life force." It isn't a particularly costly or hard-to-learn spell, so that isn't a huge stretch. And scaling up 0 points as a 150-point necromancer reaches 666 or 1,234, or 23,005 points still gives . . . 0 points. Remember that the player doesn't design Allies; like all NPCs, the GM designs them. The percentages are brackets, not guarantees; e.g., the GM is free to design a 2-point base cost Ally on anything greater than 25% of the PC's points, up to 50%, but is not in any way bound to give out 50% for the points. This applies to zombies, which the GM can always ensure remain well below whatever the bottom cutoff is: 25% in the *Basic Set* but 5% in *GURPS Zombies. Requiring that hordes of zombies be bought as Allies and linking the maximum number of Allies to level of Magery, Power Investiture, or an appropriate power Talent is a way to abstract the process of zombie maintenance: Zombies beyond the size of the group you've paid for are also beyond your "skill" as a necromancer to maintain and command. You can still have as many zombies as you like without paying for them as Allies, but the GM has no obligation to have the surplus zombies hear your orders or behave usefully. This is simply extending a fairly fundamental principle of GURPS, which is that if you haven't paid points for it, you're not guaranteed to keep it. (And no, paying points for the Zombie spell doesn't count here, any more than paying points for Filch and Pickpocket – or Snatcher – means everything you steal becomes Signature Gear, or paying points for Charisma and talking the King into doing you a favor means the King is your Patron without the point cost.) __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

12-12-2017, 09:21 PM	#27
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Gm limiting necromancy Though they are all great excuses for spending character points on those traits.

12-12-2017, 11:18 PM	#28
Flyndaran Untagged Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon	Re: Gm limiting necromancy Controlling zombies is like herding cats. Beyond a certain number, they'll just wander around swatting and biting things. Very troublesome. Even for in game reasoning, I like necromancers maintaining a required connection to their creations. Who hasn't heard of all the monsters dropping inert once the hero kills the wizard? __________________ Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check. Last edited by Flyndaran; 12-12-2017 at 11:22 PM.

12-13-2017, 08:17 AM	#29
hal Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Buffalo, New York	Re: Gm limiting necromancy I am loathe as a GM, to ever have to admit that I didn't think things through, and have to change how a spell works in mid-campaign. For me, that's a personal failure admitting that I should have done more work in preparing for the game world in which your character and any other character is playing within. That having been said, there have been times where a player in a "Modern Fantasy" game has grown overly frustrated with the inhibitions against performing necromantic spell casting in a world with Judeo-Christian beliefs, not to mention other religions that have injunctions against trafficking with the dead. So, if I were the GM of your campaign, I'd simply pull you aside and ask "Are you sure you want to do this?" I'd offer you an IQ+2 saving roll saying "The +2 bonus is for things EVERYONE knows" Fail that roll, and as GM, I'd keep my mouth shut" Miss by one, and I'd say "you have a bad feeling about this." Succeed, and I'd state simply "Society frowns upon necromantic spells in general, and the Church, ever ready to excommunicate someone, may use that against your character, or even send hunter teams known as inquisitors to hunt down servants of the Devil." Then? I'd ask what the intent is of every necromantic spell cast in the eyes of the caster (ie you). Little by little, depending on what spells you cast and how you used your minons, I'd note that the "Aura" of your character is becoming stained. I'd ask "how religious is your character?" In short? I wouldn't spring it on the player as a surprise, but I'd lead up to the whole "conflict" issues a little at a time. First, one person screams at the sight of the walking dead. Somewhere along the way, I'd make you roll against HT to avoid retching as the overly ripe bodies continued to decay (there is a reason that earthquake rescue workers wear bandannas over their mouths - bandannas soaked in gasoline I might add - rotting fresh corpses are no fun). Then, as others mention, there might be the issue of the ever present insects biting the flesh of the dead, and eventually biting the flesh of the living. If necromancy makes the flesh unappealing to the insects, it could be said to be a sign of the devil that keeps even the insects from consuming flesh as they normally might. But here's the fun part in my eyes. How do YOU Get around those issues being raised? Maybe you might seek a patron who will shelter you for your deeds - and is willing to risk interdiction (think excommunication but for a region instead of a single person) just to protect your buttocks and protect them from being roasted in a fire? Maybe you might learn to shape your appearances to look different upon need so as to avoid the negative repercussions of your constant behavior of raising the dead? Maybe you decide to use illusion spells along with spells to mask the scents of rotting flesh? Maybe you use Illusion shell on the dead to make them appear as dim-witting living village idiots? Every problem has the potential to be resolved with solutions.

12-13-2017, 08:27 AM	#30
hal Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Buffalo, New York	Re: Gm limiting necromancy Once upon a time (don't you love such a start for a story?) There was this player who loved playing mages. He was a very willful mage, and hated anyone exercising petty authority over him - much as might a city official state "you have to buy a license to practice magic" or "you need to pay taxes on the inn you want to buy" or what have you. In a fit of pique, said player had his highly trained mage (who also knew teleportation and other fun spells) whip up a batch of Alcahest (Universal Solvent). He then flew over the heads of the Empire's exiled prince (the emperor's brother that is) as well as the Empire's head religious official (think like Bishop or arch bishop) - and dropped the entire case load of the stuff. Needless to say, said "Mage" became a wanted individual VERY quickly. So, the Mage's guild - knowing the wrath of the Emperor would be great indeed, hatched a plan to get the assassin and bring him to justice. They gathered together and in a vast circle, created a pebble with a link to it, along with the spell "Suspend Mana". So vast was the energy imparted into this simple pebble (which required the pebble be hurled to the ground with intent to activate the spell via the mouthing of a word) that it suspended mana in a 1/2 mile radius. All that was required, was that the Mage's friends signal to the city officials, that the murderer, the Assassin, was at their home - otherwise, the friends innocent of the assassination, would be punished for their association with the evil mage assassin. Long story short? The pebble was hurled a short distance from the mage, all of his spells (including an enchanted item to reverse missiles) were useless, and the assassin was shot down in the streets like a common dog. The entire party turned on that mage. Moral of the story? No matter how big your character gets, there will always be someone bigger, or the little guys will band together to take you down etc. And above all, retain the loyalty of the player characters you spend time with. If they turn against you, your days are numbered. ;)