Forces and the self

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

So e.g. cats get a 'Listening' skill at x just for being cats(or celestials in cat vessels) in addition to points/ Perception(for Vessels)?

That's definitely one option, though I would generally say that celestials should not get similar bonuses to their Vessels unless they pay for 'em. One can handwave as the animal having an even stronger connection to the corporeal body because it's an animal (closer to nature, blah blah blah), or that Superiors generally figure your celestial senses are going to be good enough and don't want to expend the energy required to raise the "animal default" skills/abilities any more than they absolutely have to. They're already letting you talk normally, after all.

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=4562 is, tangentially, a take on that for GURPS IN.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

That's definitely one option, though I would generally say that celestials should not get similar bonuses to their Vessels unless they pay for 'em. One can handwave as the animal having an even stronger connection to the corporeal body because it's an animal (closer to nature, blah blah blah), or that Superiors generally figure your celestial senses are going to be good enough and don't want to expend the energy required to raise the "animal default" skills/abilities any more than they absolutely have to. They're already letting you talk normally, after all.

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=4562 is, tangentially, a take on that for GURPS IN.

Well, yes, but G:IN just short-circuits the whole problem, really.

[Archangel Beth]

True! Though it does add brand new ones in other areas. (Kyriotates, I'm looking at YOU. O:p )

[dataweaver]

Yeah; I remember hashing out something like this back when we did some work on "In Nomine, GURPS Ultra-Lite style". The discussion had to do with the relationship between physical bodies (in particular, their size) and Corporeal Forces, with the main takeaway being that bodies are distinct from the Forces that inhabit them. As such, the body can have properties that aren't derived from the Forces, and vice versa.

I also tend to think that the relationship between Forces and the soul is similar: the soul has properties (e.g., Choir or Band for celestials) that are independent of the Forces connected to it: you could swap out every Force that an Impudite has, and she'd remain an Impudite. However, she wouldn't be unchanged by the process: replacing Ethereal Forces would alter her memories, and replacing Celestial Forces would alter her personality. So your Force-makeup is still an essential component of who you are; but it isn't all that you are.

Overall, my view of the soul in In Nomine is that it's a "Platonic Form" of sorts that exists in Limbo and acts as the "central processing unit", the core of one's identity. Forces act as couplings between the soul and the three Realms, with Hearts, dreamscapes/Images, and bodies/Vessels acting as the "anchor points" to which the Forces connect. Extending the computer analogy a bit, they also act as a sort of "internal memory" (Ethereal Forces) and "operating system" (Celestial Forces), whereas the body acts as "external storage" where memories are concerned.

Finally, Celestial Forces also act as the soul's "power supply", keeping it alive: detach all Celestial Forces from a soul and it dies. It continues to exist, binding the remaining Ethereal and Corporeal Forces together; but it's dead, a Remnant of what it once was, and can never be revitalized. Conversely, Figments are proto-souls that haven't been activated yet. They also bind a configuration of Forces together (usually Ethereal; sometimes Corporeal as well); but until they gain at least one Celestial Force, they remain inert. Animals have Figment-equivalents, with the prominence of Ethereal and Corporeal Forces reversed: that is, a corporeal "Figment" always has at least one Corporeal Force, and may also have Ethereal Forces.

Fringe cases: ghosts and celestial forms are ways to retain a connection to the Corporeal Realm without a body or Vessel. The Celestial Form is unique in that it's the only form that can exist outside of its native Realm. The connection to the Celestial Realm can (sometimes?) be maintained even without a Heart. (Please remind me: can Ethereals enter the Celestial Realm? Can Outcasts and Renegades do so? IIRC, the answers are no and yes, respectively.)

In the above scheme, the closest thing to the "self" as defined in the original post would probably be the Image, or something of the sort. As I see it, no playable character is ever without one: you can lose any other component of your being, and you remain a playable character; but once your Image goes, that's it. As well, nobody ever has more than one Image/"self" (unless you count split personalities; and even then, you generally never have more than one at a time).

In a futuristic In Nomine setting with AI, I'd say that non-sapient AIs have Figment-like "proto-souls" and sapient AIs have fully active souls. I'd also say that cyberspace has a literal existence in the Ethereal Realm, and functions for AIs as dreamscapes do for people.

[Rocket Man]

To answer your question, ethereals cannot enter the celestial realm. Outcasts are barred from re-entering Heaven; in theory, Renegades could re-enter Hell; it's just not safe for them to.

[dataweaver]

So with Outcasts and Renegades, it isn't that it's impossible; it's that there are consequences for trying to do it. But for Ethereals, it's flat-out impossible.

[William]

With one exception: Ethereals (and even mortals!) can use the Celestial Song of Projection from the Corporeal locus of a Tether to project to the Celestial locus. However, they cannot move from there celestially. This Song is of such restricted utility to an Ethereal that it is likely they would need to acquire a relic for the purpose, or have the Song used on them via Transferrence.

(Yves' Right of Passage allows riders, but this is not so useful, as the rider becomes lost if separated from the angel. Rikbiel, the Ofanite Angel of Ascension, can transport living mortals to Heaven, but it is unclear whether he can use this ability on any other class of being.)

[Azel]

Considering Novalis' Kyriotates attunement, plants already show how they have a very different forces structure, of which Novalis allows her servitors to tap into. To assume that animals are also differently wired, and that Jordi does not want servitors to directly tap into that, is not too far off an idea to believe. At that point it is the IN SJG system deciding that such material is really beyond the scope of its design, just like statting out Superiors.

Eventually any finite structure breaks. So it doesn't surprise me that 'the maths' of IN SJG doesn't bother scaling downward towards plants and animals, just as it doesn't scale upwards towards Superiors. It would be implied knowledge that any such model would eventually break and those ends of the spectrum are obviously beyond the model's scope.

For everything else within that scope: No Celestial Forces, No Soul.

(And I totally buy RocketMan's breakdown for infant development. Outside of using fractions (or bought up attributes as stand-ins for full forces, i.e. Int 1, Pre 1, but technically Eth 0 because there's no 4 points in Eth attributes yet), it's just the cleanest assumption. It's how I'd run my infants and children.)

[cptbutton]

(Does the servitor with the Word of Thread Necromancy work for Orc/Jean, Nybbas, or Vapula?)

My take:
A new SAI gets celestial and other forces from wherever babies get them (The Chamber of Guf?). Many are reincarnations of mortals. This can have effects like elusive dreams or memories from past lives, and predisposition to certain personality traits. Also any other things that go with reincarnation like karmic bonds, destinies, fates, etc.

LAIs are basically artificial remnants, with ethereal and possibly corporeal but no celestial forces.

NAIs are just machines, things without forces.

When a technoghost is created by a destructive upload it gets the forces from the mortal body.

When a technoghost is created by non-destructive upload or by xoxing it shares the forces from the mortal body or the copied original. A mundane technological version of the Kyriotate resonance, but not exactly the same of course.

An xoxed SAI also shares forces with the original.

As xoxes or technoghosts diverge due to different experiences, there comes a point when they split, and the "new" one gets forces from reincarnation or the Chamber of Guf as above. This tends to accelerate the divergence.

This frequently happens during dreams, and in the Vale you see the dreamscape split into two.

(Who gets dreamscapes? Only complete mortals, everything with celestial forces, everything with ethereal forces, or everything with celestial and ethereal forces? And do dreamscapes vanish when you wake up, or just collapse from a sphere full of visions into a pebble or grain of sand in the Vale?)

Thread notes:

I like Rocket Man's version of infant force development too.

On animals and plants I agree with the idea that the granularity of the game system obscures the more subtle reality of those situation. And I think that animals can have characteristics without the force, just like celestials training them up.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

An xoxed SAI also shares forces with the original.

Does that mean that one of a group of three copies is weaker than one of two copies?

Originally Posted by cptbutton

(Who gets dreamscapes? Only complete mortals, everything with celestial forces, everything with ethereal forces, or everything with celestial and ethereal forces? And do dreamscapes vanish when you wake up, or just collapse from a sphere full of visions into a pebble or grain of sand in the Vale?)p.

I'm guessing all AIs (including Shadows, who run around AI cores), having Doesn't Sleep, do not have dreamscapes due to not being able to dream at all.