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Old 12-12-2017, 06:58 PM   #1
draxdeveloper
 
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Default Priest CER (pyramid 77 pg 29)

Ok, reading about CER i was thinking about how i could evaluate the Priest CER. Priest is a support class, but the CER don't take in account his healing and buff spells even if it's crucial to the team. So i was thinking, would be nice a "support rating" that would check you skill to work to the team.
On other way around, i have a bard with level 4 siren song and it's giving to him a OR of 62 (with just this affliction).
This is because baneful song gives 105%, dazed gives 50% and de extended range gives 150%. Also, Siren song don't use FP so the value is not cut by half.
Siren song is really that effective in combat?
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Old 12-12-2017, 07:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: Priest CER (pyramid 77 pg 29)

ALso, if someone uses GCS and Gurps calculator. Can you explain to me how the CER is calculated there? How i will make it count the Affliction value?
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Old 12-12-2017, 09:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: Priest CER (pyramid 77 pg 29)

My experience wtih CER runs counter to what many others will say. I've found it to be a far less than useful way of estimating combat effectiveness, and that if anything, it only further supports the adage that "balance is a lie". As such, I'd just not use it at all and spwmd time you'd have used on calculating CER on getting to know your players instead. So to better address your question, no it doesn't take buffs and support abilities into account and that will skew your results badly. The only possible solution, which doesnt really quite work in the case of healing and resorative magic, is to find the CER of PCs as if they are already buffed. This is cludgy and bad, but it's your only option.

That said, a lot of people here like it and use it. They may have better solutions for you than do I.
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Last edited by Humabout; 12-12-2017 at 09:50 PM.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:29 AM   #4
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Priest CER (pyramid 77 pg 29)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
My experience wtih CER runs counter to what many others will say. I've found it to be a far less than useful way of estimating combat effectiveness, and that if anything, it only further supports the adage that "balance is a lie".
Yeah, as one of the folks in zuljita's games, which use CER extensively, I'm on the other side here. Even a recent "this doesn't work" experience against dragons wound up being very illuminating.

The CER suggested that our party should wipe the floor with a dragon, and be effective against several. Reality: the party mix was particularly non-optimized for that threat. Test: knowing what they faced, the other guys created a party designed to utterly smash dragons.

Result: Dragons were utterly smashed. We looked at our party, and the test party, and simply realized we were lacking some basic capability that DF assumes in its monster mix. Area attacks (breath weapons), and monsters with high DR and few weak spots (the eyes, the fave targets of scouts, were armored with DR 9 nictitating membranes). Had our party been of better composition we'd have done well.

This issue is common to the DnD challenge rating system as well; it's right there in the DMG and PHB that the CR assumes a mixed party of full-rested adventurers. CER is no different, in that the type of foe you face influences greatly the challenge it presents.

Still, there were some good suggestions for improving the system, and they're being looked into, but by and large it does what it says on the tin: gives the potential for a balanced encounter given the right circumstances.

The roleplaying challenge is to not do "recon by fire" and just charge in. Learning the weaknesses and strengths of the foe, making a solid evaluation of ability to deal with them, and then avoiding or tilting the encounter are all part of the deal.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: Priest CER (pyramid 77 pg 29)

CER is not designed for use without a GM (despite the fact that I use it so). If you insert a monster with too much DR for your party, don't be surprised if they have to run or die horribly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by draxdeveloper View Post
Ok, reading about CER i was thinking about how i could evaluate the Priest CER. Priest is a support class, but the CER don't take in account his healing and buff spells even if it's crucial to the team. So i was thinking, would be nice a "support rating" that would check you skill to work to the team.
On other way around, i have a bard with level 4 siren song and it's giving to him a OR of 62 (with just this affliction).
This is because baneful song gives 105%, dazed gives 50% and de extended range gives 150%. Also, Siren song don't use FP so the value is not cut by half.
Siren song is really that effective in combat?
I'll note up front that It's a Threat is a super dense article, and it's author has noted in a few places that he had to squeeze quite a bit to get in everything he did without blowing through his space limitations.

You'll also want to do the math for *each* spell the cleric can do to figure out what clocks in highest with regards to offensive rating. This is a labor intensive process (one of these days I'll make a list of every spell and how much it increases CER), so consider fudging and guessing a bit to save time. Buff and support abilities can be factored in on OR. Here's how I'd do it: Take a look at Enraged Eggplant's index of base magic spells converted to sorcery. and just take the points of the most expensive (keeping in mind that these aren't perfect duplications, just similar) and divide it by 5, then by 2 for costing FP.

I'm not an expert on the songs (I've never seen them in play) but Siren Song looks devastating against certain group compositions. When it works, it'll completely change the battle. The advantage of numbers in GURPS is easy to overlook. More stabs mean more chances for a crit, mean more shock penalties and possibly major wounds, once you take a major wound, there's a good chance you are reeling, but you also have a chance of dropping your weapons and going face first into the earth and having to recover from stun.

CER does take into account healing (it comes in under hit points. I'd look at it again. you also need to do math based on the direst affliction the cleric can heal).


Quote:
Originally Posted by draxdeveloper View Post
ALso, if someone uses GCS and Gurps calculator. Can you explain to me how the CER is calculated there? How i will make it count the Affliction value?
I can't help you much with this. I don't use GCS at all. The calculator is cool but GCA is my main way of interacting with it. I've had a few issues getting it to do the import right (The author is looking at the bug report at the moment) but until I can get the import working, I'm doing the math more or less by hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
My experience wtih CER runs counter to what many others will say. I've found it to be a far less than useful way of estimating combat effectiveness, and that if anything, it only further supports the adage that "balance is a lie". As such, I'd just not use it at all and spwmd time you'd have used on calculating CER on getting to know your players instead. So to better address your question, no it doesn't take buffs and support abilities into account and that will skew your results badly. The only possible solution, which doesnt really quite work in the case of healing and resorative magic, is to find the CER of PCs as if they are already buffed. This is cludgy and bad, but it's your only option.

That said, a lot of people here like it and use it. They may have better solutions for you than do I.
Balance is tricky and far more art than science. Even more so in GURPS where one good roll either way can save or doom the party. The wrong crit from a goblin with a shortsword can lay low your 400 pt knight encased in epic plate. CER is really another tool in the toolbox for looking at balance. Is it perfect? No. Can it provide valuable insights and give you an idea of when to throw another goblin or 3 in the ambush? Absolutely.
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Last edited by zuljita; 12-13-2017 at 09:07 AM.
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