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Old 12-12-2017, 08:05 AM   #41
JoelSammallahti
 
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I'm trying to think of what's the most advanced stuff I can remember in the shire. Water wheels, the map that is supposedly in setting? Maybe there's some organised animal husbandry going on that might qualify

Actually clocks, does Bag End have clocks?
Is there a water wheel? I don't recall that.

There were some pretty good maps at TL 2, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolem...sia_detail.jpg
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:06 AM   #42
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

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Actually clocks, does Bag End have clocks?
The Hobbit mentions a clock on the mantle above the fireplace in chapter 2
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:14 AM   #43
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

Right you are. So, clockworks, cork-stoppered bottles (I've been informed), fireworks, and a few other details here and there. I'd still call it TL 2 with the dwarves (and maybe Saruman?) advanced to TL 4 in engineering and a few isolated TL 3 developments. But TL 3, with slightly retarded weapons technology, might fit just as well.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:21 AM   #44
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

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Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti View Post
Is there a water wheel? I don't recall that.
Yep there's a water mill it's owned by Ted Sandyman it gets an upgrade by "Sharkey", so basically ties into the "despoiling of bucolic England by nasty old industrialisation" motif

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There were some pretty good maps at TL 2, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolem...sia_detail.jpg

Fair enough and actually yeah the map i was thinking of isn't that modern looking


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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
The Hobbit mentions a clock on the mantle above the fireplace in chapter 2
cool, cheers

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Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti View Post
Right you are. So, clockworks, cork-stoppered bottles (I've been informed), fireworks, and a few other details here and there. I'd still call it TL 2 with the dwarves (and maybe Saruman?) advanced to TL 4 in engineering and a few isolated TL 3 developments. But TL 3, with slightly retarded weapons technology, might fit just as well.
Goblins are good with machines as well (ala the hobbit)

are corks TL4? (didn't know that)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-12-2017 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:01 PM   #45
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

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By the time the Romans were making wide use of brass it seems reasonable for it to be cheaper than bronze. Perhaps 3x the cost of an equivalent ferrous item instead of 4x.
Nice. I had no clue at all about that. Nice addition to any period campaign I may create. Thanks.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:27 PM   #46
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

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Not by anyone who knows what they are talking about.
Nobody prior to 1721 knew what they were talking about?

That, notably includes the Romans, who you are talking about, who used neither word.

The usage of "brass" in the KJB Old Testament cannot be refering to zinc alloys, since they didn't exist. I suppose it can be said that the translators didn't know what they were talking about, but they didn't have the option of using a word that didn't exist yet either.

This seems like the confusion between corn, maize, and other grains when reading old documents. The contemporary distinctions of these words aren't necessarily applicable to historical documents.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 12-12-2017 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:35 PM   #47
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

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Nobody prior to 1721 knew what they were talking about?
In terms of scientific chemistry this is largely true.
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Old 12-12-2017, 07:48 PM   #48
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

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By the time the Romans were making wide use of brass it seems reasonable for it to be cheaper than bronze. Perhaps 3x the cost of an equivalent ferrous item instead of 4x.
In realistic terms, brass should have the same cost as bronze, or even higher in Roman settings. During the 3rd century A.D., the percentage of zinc in the brass used for money abitually exceeded a valor of 17%, and brass had six to eight times the value of copper. Tecniques to make brass from copper and zinc date at least to eight century B.C. (early TL2) and probably had their origin in the Iranian plateau.
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Old 12-12-2017, 07:57 PM   #49
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

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In terms of scientific chemistry this is largely true.
Sure, but that makes this modern technical jargon that doesn't apply to pre-modern (and even early modern) usages. Just like "corn" doesn't mean maise in historical sources, "brass" doesn't mean copper-zinc alloys.

Did the Romans distinguish the two alloys? I assume that if they did they had Latin names for them...
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Old 12-15-2017, 03:27 AM   #50
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Default Re: "Medieval" fantasy with tech 2?

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Sure, but that makes this modern technical jargon that doesn't apply to pre-modern (and even early modern) usages. Just like "corn" doesn't mean maise in historical sources, "brass" doesn't mean copper-zinc alloys.

Did the Romans distinguish the two alloys? I assume that if they did they had Latin names for them...
Well, if you believe Google Translate, both 'brass' and 'bronze' are called 'aes' in Latin, but 'brass bronze' and 'bronze brass' (and 'bronze, brass') read as 'aes sonans,' which is also Latin for 'gong' (the musical instrument, which I'm not sure the Romans even knew about).

Interestingly, 'sonans' by itself is also 'gong,' but 'sonans aes' is 'brass, bronze.'
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