Asking opinions about preaching - Page 4

Icelander · 08-18-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maz

Are you saying that any transaction involves a reaction roll?

Yes.

If it's trivial or the players and GM don't want to bother with it, then sure, skip it, but in any case where the parties in a transaction have any discretion over their actions, it absolutely does matter. A merchant who likes the PC might give him a discount or offer him an interesting deal while one who does not might charge him extra.

To extent that analogy over to this case, if the priestess got a good reaction roll (or made her Influence checks), she'd have a loyal and cheerful new recruit. If she botched it too badly and made it seem like a mercenary proposition (or even tried intimidation), it might be that the NPC took such a personal dislike to her that he declined to join a priesthood that would employ such scoundrels or even that he tried to contact other members of the faith and complain of the PC.

Canology · 08-18-2009, 12:43 PM

For the record, Public Speaking isn't just giving speeches. It specifically includes debate, which I think would be most appropriate here. Debate implies a logical series of reasons that the NPC should join the clergy.

Maybe you could do something like the Burning Wheel system and give each side of the argument a number of "hit points" based on Will modified by strength of conviction. In this case it would be "You should join the clergy" versus "Eh, I'm really not sure that's for me". Each round of discussion involves a roll of Debate (or whatever skill you end up using) versus Will or IQ and the margin of victory subtracting from the argument's "HP". So in this case, maybe over a week or so of daily discussions, the NPC will run out of HP and be inclined to join the clergy, or on the hand, the PC gives up on a lost cause as she can't change the NPC's mind.

The Colonel · 08-18-2009, 03:31 PM

I still maintain that no sane religion goes out trying to recruit unbelievers to the clergy. That's just asking for trouble.

Gudiomen · 08-18-2009, 04:44 PM

I don't think a single encounter would do it. And I agree with Icelander that several situations or the context has to be taken into account when deciding which skill to use. And the preacher has several options he can explore creatively...

For example, a Jehovah's witness I know convinced someone to to come to a meeting through Theology (she pointed out discrepancies with what the person believed as an evangelical and confonted that with the religious text and lore).
Some atempts are clearly "comercial" where the preaching person offers the "target" a series of benefits, be them spiritual or material, in exchange for allegiance.
Convincing a reluctant listener to attend to "just one meeting and see how it is" might be Fast-Talk.
Pointing out the mutual benefits of a religious association might be Diplomacy.
Intimidation: do you want to burn in hell!?
Exploiting the target's fears of death and desires might use Psychology.
Hell, depending on your approach you can use Sex-Appeal. "Gosh, we sure could use a strapping lad like you at the temple, we girls struggle so much with those heavy benches..."

Each atempt of convincing needs to be taken individually, there are no GURPS mechanics for long-term conversion to anything. This is one of those things that must be resolved logically. In real life this is a very complex issue that depends on personal, persuasive and external factors.

There are tons of bonuses and penalties based on the cultural context, the targets personal beliefs... I suggest you go with several individual persuasive attempts over time, as well as taking into account the target NPCs personality, history, moral values, views and social context, once you as the GM decide that he is sufficiently convinced to join and call himself a follower of X, it's done.

Such things are too diverse to sum up in a simple set of mechanics.

capnq · 08-18-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Public Speaking is the wrong skill unless the recruiter is giving a rousing speech to a crowd Joe happens to be in, IMO.

I repeat, one can give a full-blown speech to a single person; a "crowd" isn't strictly necessary. I've done it myself in real life, doing a dry run of a sermon I'd volunteered to give, with only a minister listening to me from the back of the chapel, to critique it and give me tips for improving my delivery.

Polydamas · 08-18-2009, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I still maintain that no sane religion goes out trying to recruit unbelievers to the clergy. That's just asking for trouble.

There are precedents, like Bishop Synesius of Cyrene, but I agree it isn't a good idea.

Diplomacy, Public Speaking, Psychology, and Philosophy/Theology (either your own, to make your beliefs sound sensible, or theirs, to frame your argument in terms they respect) seem like the key skills to me.

Extrarius · 08-18-2009, 09:58 PM

If you want a house-rule mechanism for convincing somebody to make a large life change (presuming they're already oriented in the same general direction as the change), I'd suggest that should require a diplomacy roll for each long conversation (1+ hours) and that critical success means they change their ways, critical failure means they become polarized against it, success means they'll show up for the next conversation, and failure means they won't.
I might require "lower of diplomacy or argument-related skill (theology for religion, etc)" instead, so only people that know enough to point out benefits can be actually convincing. Maybe you can use lower of diplomacy and psychology if you just want to manipulate somebody into something you're not knowledgeable about, and of course acting (since it is over a longer period of time) might be another required skill if you don't actually believe what you're trying to convince them of.

jeff_wilson · 08-19-2009, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Colonel

I still maintain that no sane religion goes out trying to recruit unbelievers to the clergy. That's just asking for trouble.

It came out that the OP had in mind a faithful lay person to recruit but he just didn't get his point across at first.

Orion Deckrect · 08-19-2009, 01:43 PM

i have been reading all the posts and thinking a lot about all what was said. i also consulted other RPG systems to try to shift the mechanical way i tend to look situations when using Gurps.

I really agree, plently, about the fact that different situations may require different skills, as i also begin to think that - taking away the practical example i gave before - the Diplomacy skill may be very useful, specially for initial contacts with a newcomer or someone the PC dont knows directly.

My first instinct is always use the reaction roll as a base, but Kromm's words were haunting my mind and i tend to discard these instincts when they rise. But, in fact, the reaction table looks to be a very good parameter...

Discarding the fact that any new situation is very different, because it impose different quirks about the NPCs, i see that this discussion may bring many ways to reach the same objective. But analyzing also my campaing needs, i see it would be useful if all our minds together, now input new aspects and data to build up a more generic system to deal with such situations.

The proposal then is use all that was taken until now and prepare a model for GMs use in mass conversions and the like. What if a PC will just spend a month or two in a given city and decides to dedicate four hours by they to spread the word of his/her god/godess/whatever?

What would be the bonus and penalties due to the religion's aspects? Does it offend the local moral? Does it demands too much? Does it offer too few? Is the power offered by the religion pratical on day by day affairs?

With such guide, i suppose, we and other GMs would have a guide to deal with "off screen" conversions, having an idea about how many people may be interested in the religion, converted, fanatical or joining the ranks and make the wheel spin.

Back to the main point... I must say i had discarded everything but Bard/Public Speech from my "list" of useful skill to the matter. But now, i do consider to apologize to anyone who sayd Diplomacy would be important :)

Its is not important to the practical example given - Someone who likes the religion, practices it and now is invited to become a priest. The situation is very specific. The player simply came with an idea that sounds very good in practical terms to the NPC - gain power, a patron and real miracles - but may sound a little weird as the given NPC did never consider such chance.

So, as we are reaching to a good resolution about this micro-scope situation, i do think we may start to move to a larger scope. Or not?

P.S Oh! And i also agree that, perhaps in this sigle case, just a meeting may end the issue, but in general terms, this type of influence cannot happen in just a meeting and a single roll. I loved the idea about the debate with hit points for the points of view, specially because it was much like my intention. The only difference is that i was creating a progression to "keep the interest" until the breaking point, where the conversion really happens. After that, i was prepared to use other skills to avaliate another level of commitment to the church.

Include the reaction table to this equation will only give me one addicional problem - The PC have charisma +5, Voice, Beautyful and a reputation +2 to anyone in this city! LOL

Gudiomen · 08-20-2009, 08:01 PM

Well, my starting point would be the reaction table categories... your objective would be to raise the NPCs initial reaction not to you, but to your religion.
The various social skills may be used to do this, at some defined rate (one attempt per week?). So someone that has a bad impression about a certain religion would be harder to convert than someone that has an already positive view of the faith.

I'm not sure exactly how to accomplish this, one could continue to work the concept, or use another approach entirely. But I can't imagine the use of this outside a religious or political campaign.

You can also go nuts, and use the concepts of "memes" as viral ideas. Only instead of resisting them with HT, you'll resist based on Will. Penalties to resist would vary according to the level of exposure and virulence of the idea. After contracted, the idea develops until the subject is converted... unless some intervention occurs.

08-18-2009, 12:43 PM	#32
Canology Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Spokane Valley, WA	Re: Asking opinions about preaching For the record, Public Speaking isn't just giving speeches. It specifically includes debate, which I think would be most appropriate here. Debate implies a logical series of reasons that the NPC should join the clergy. Maybe you could do something like the Burning Wheel system and give each side of the argument a number of "hit points" based on Will modified by strength of conviction. In this case it would be "You should join the clergy" versus "Eh, I'm really not sure that's for me". Each round of discussion involves a roll of Debate (or whatever skill you end up using) versus Will or IQ and the margin of victory subtracting from the argument's "HP". So in this case, maybe over a week or so of daily discussions, the NPC will run out of HP and be inclined to join the clergy, or on the hand, the PC gives up on a lost cause as she can't change the NPC's mind. __________________ Check out my GURPS-y blog, World of Domibia

08-18-2009, 03:31 PM	#33
The Colonel Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: Asking opinions about preaching I still maintain that no sane religion goes out trying to recruit unbelievers to the clergy. That's just asking for trouble.

08-18-2009, 04:44 PM	#34
Gudiomen Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: in your pocket, stealing all your change	Re: Asking opinions about preaching I don't think a single encounter would do it. And I agree with Icelander that several situations or the context has to be taken into account when deciding which skill to use. And the preacher has several options he can explore creatively... For example, a Jehovah's witness I know convinced someone to to come to a meeting through Theology (she pointed out discrepancies with what the person believed as an evangelical and confonted that with the religious text and lore). Some atempts are clearly "comercial" where the preaching person offers the "target" a series of benefits, be them spiritual or material, in exchange for allegiance. Convincing a reluctant listener to attend to "just one meeting and see how it is" might be Fast-Talk. Pointing out the mutual benefits of a religious association might be Diplomacy. Intimidation: do you want to burn in hell!? Exploiting the target's fears of death and desires might use Psychology. Hell, depending on your approach you can use Sex-Appeal. "Gosh, we sure could use a strapping lad like you at the temple, we girls struggle so much with those heavy benches..." Each atempt of convincing needs to be taken individually, there are no GURPS mechanics for long-term conversion to anything. This is one of those things that must be resolved logically. In real life this is a very complex issue that depends on personal, persuasive and external factors. There are tons of bonuses and penalties based on the cultural context, the targets personal beliefs... I suggest you go with several individual persuasive attempts over time, as well as taking into account the target NPCs personality, history, moral values, views and social context, once you as the GM decide that he is sufficiently convinced to join and call himself a follower of X, it's done. Such things are too diverse to sum up in a simple set of mechanics.

08-18-2009, 09:58 PM	#37
Extrarius Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Psionic Ward	Re: Asking opinions about preaching If you want a house-rule mechanism for convincing somebody to make a large life change (presuming they're already oriented in the same general direction as the change), I'd suggest that should require a diplomacy roll for each long conversation (1+ hours) and that critical success means they change their ways, critical failure means they become polarized against it, success means they'll show up for the next conversation, and failure means they won't. I might require "lower of diplomacy or argument-related skill (theology for religion, etc)" instead, so only people that know enough to point out benefits can be actually convincing. Maybe you can use lower of diplomacy and psychology if you just want to manipulate somebody into something you're not knowledgeable about, and of course acting (since it is over a longer period of time) might be another required skill if you don't actually believe what you're trying to convince them of. Last edited by Extrarius; 08-18-2009 at 10:02 PM.

08-19-2009, 01:43 PM	#39
Orion Deckrect Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil	Re: Asking opinions about preaching i have been reading all the posts and thinking a lot about all what was said. i also consulted other RPG systems to try to shift the mechanical way i tend to look situations when using Gurps. I really agree, plently, about the fact that different situations may require different skills, as i also begin to think that - taking away the practical example i gave before - the Diplomacy skill may be very useful, specially for initial contacts with a newcomer or someone the PC dont knows directly. My first instinct is always use the reaction roll as a base, but Kromm's words were haunting my mind and i tend to discard these instincts when they rise. But, in fact, the reaction table looks to be a very good parameter... Discarding the fact that any new situation is very different, because it impose different quirks about the NPCs, i see that this discussion may bring many ways to reach the same objective. But analyzing also my campaing needs, i see it would be useful if all our minds together, now input new aspects and data to build up a more generic system to deal with such situations. The proposal then is use all that was taken until now and prepare a model for GMs use in mass conversions and the like. What if a PC will just spend a month or two in a given city and decides to dedicate four hours by they to spread the word of his/her god/godess/whatever? What would be the bonus and penalties due to the religion's aspects? Does it offend the local moral? Does it demands too much? Does it offer too few? Is the power offered by the religion pratical on day by day affairs? With such guide, i suppose, we and other GMs would have a guide to deal with "off screen" conversions, having an idea about how many people may be interested in the religion, converted, fanatical or joining the ranks and make the wheel spin. Back to the main point... I must say i had discarded everything but Bard/Public Speech from my "list" of useful skill to the matter. But now, i do consider to apologize to anyone who sayd Diplomacy would be important :) Its is not important to the practical example given - Someone who likes the religion, practices it and now is invited to become a priest. The situation is very specific. The player simply came with an idea that sounds very good in practical terms to the NPC - gain power, a patron and real miracles - but may sound a little weird as the given NPC did never consider such chance. So, as we are reaching to a good resolution about this micro-scope situation, i do think we may start to move to a larger scope. Or not? P.S Oh! And i also agree that, perhaps in this sigle case, just a meeting may end the issue, but in general terms, this type of influence cannot happen in just a meeting and a single roll. I loved the idea about the debate with hit points for the points of view, specially because it was much like my intention. The only difference is that i was creating a progression to "keep the interest" until the breaking point, where the conversion really happens. After that, i was prepared to use other skills to avaliate another level of commitment to the church. Include the reaction table to this equation will only give me one addicional problem - The PC have charisma +5, Voice, Beautyful and a reputation +2 to anyone in this city! LOL __________________ "I am the Elf. I am the One who walks alone."

08-20-2009, 08:01 PM	#40
Gudiomen Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: in your pocket, stealing all your change	Re: Asking opinions about preaching Well, my starting point would be the reaction table categories... your objective would be to raise the NPCs initial reaction not to you, but to your religion. The various social skills may be used to do this, at some defined rate (one attempt per week?). So someone that has a bad impression about a certain religion would be harder to convert than someone that has an already positive view of the faith. I'm not sure exactly how to accomplish this, one could continue to work the concept, or use another approach entirely. But I can't imagine the use of this outside a religious or political campaign. You can also go nuts, and use the concepts of "memes" as viral ideas. Only instead of resisting them with HT, you'll resist based on Will. Penalties to resist would vary according to the level of exposure and virulence of the idea. After contracted, the idea develops until the subject is converted... unless some intervention occurs.