GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

[MrFix]

I just find it weird that Sex Appeal has higher cause-surrender potential simply from maxing out at Very Good, even if GM piles up penalties.

Wanted to know if I am reading something wrong.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by MrFix

I just find it weird that Sex Appeal has higher cause-surrender potential simply from maxing out at Very Good, even if GM piles up penalties.

Wanted to know if I am reading something wrong.

If Sex Appeal does work it's not going to cause them to run away, so surrender and failure are the only options.

[Joseph Paul]

Yeah I think you are missing something - From the moment the criminals are confronted by the cops there is a fight going on. No one needs to throw a blow for it to be a fight. The criminals know that the cops will assault them. Roll for morale then and keep rolling for it as time passes and the possibility of more cops showing up goes up. Apply modifiers if intimidation, fisticuffs or gun play ensues lowering the chances that the criminals will fight back and increasing the odds that they will surrender.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Yeah I think you are missing something - From the moment the criminals are confronted by the cops there is a fight going on. No one needs to throw a blow for it to be a fight. The criminals know that the cops will assault them. Roll for morale then and keep rolling for it as time passes and the possibility of more cops showing up goes up. Apply modifiers if intimidation, fisticuffs or gun play ensues lowering the chances that the criminals will fight back and increasing the odds that they will surrender.

I believe this to be wrong. GURPS separates narrative and combat strictly via second by second resolution. Even if you make your case that it doesn't have to be so, the rules for influence rolls EXPLICITLY separate two stages, potential combat and in-combat, giving different reactions and results.

If cops approaching a suspect is already combat, then what is the supposed 'potential combat' situation? What if suspect never intends to fight and cooperates right away, how does that qualify as a 'fight' or combat?

[Joseph Paul]

OK, lets go with the scene where the cops have arrived at the robbery before the criminals have left the building.

Turn 1 - Officers Malone and Whittaker taking up positions that give them cover and allow them to cover the door. They exhort the criminals to surrender or they are coming in hard.

Criminals cover the entrance with their guns.

Turn 2-9 continues like that, no one moves and officers making Evaluate or Sense rolls and role-playing talking the criminals down. Criminals cover the door.

Turn 10 - Officers move. GM decides the criminals must make a morale roll to see if they are going to risk a shoot out.

There is nothing that says the criminals can't surrender on the first turn of combat time either. Isn't there a 'Harsh Realism for Combat" that requires every one to be making morale checks before they can strike a blow?

Or you can do it as Narrative up to point where the criminals have to make a Morale roll and go into combat when one of them fires.

Perhaps the criminals should be making morale checks in Turn1 with a cumulative modifier representing the passage of time that allows more reinforcements to arrive.


And Social Engineering has some alternate rules to give Influence Rolls a range that includes Very Good if you want to be very mechanistic about it.

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by MrFix

If cops approaching a suspect is already combat, then what is the supposed 'potential combat' situation?

Potential combat is that period where the elements necessary for a fight to start is present. Sharks and Jets both show up at a community event- reaction roll it. In the example of the clear commission of a crime and the criminal being approached by police the narrative has already thrown those dice.

What if suspect never intends to fight and cooperates right away, how does that qualify as a 'fight' or combat?

Until a suspect is in custody in whatever level of bodily control is called for it is a tactical situation. The cops don't know that they won't have to be using violence so they are prepared for it. If the suspect intends to give himself up then there isn't a need to roll a reaction is there?

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

-Snip-

Quite interesting way to handle it, unconventional, never seen it happen like that. Maybe I'll consider it.

And yeah, I want the mechanical answer to it all, rather than GM Fiat or whatever, because GMs differ, but rules themselves rarely do, so I'd like a page number for the Very Good reaction thing in Social Engineering - can't seem to find it.

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by MrFix

And yeah, I want the mechanical answer to it all, rather than GM Fiat or whatever, because GMs differ, but rules themselves rarely do, so I'd like a page number for the Very Good reaction thing in Social Engineering - can't seem to find it.

Bottom of page 31

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Bottom of page 31

Thanks, this is looking more like it. It even throws a reference to Mysteries and specifically names police procedurals, so that oughta help.

Pity it's an optional rule, rather than an errata/fix/upgrade, but still, might use that in my own game.

Do you think Influence Skills could be of use during Combat Morale rolls though? It specifically outlines that Good reaction leads to surrender, as opposed to Very good on Reaction roll.

If it does, it would permit Basic Set influence skills to force surrender without this optional rule from mysteries/social engineering.

[Harald387]

Originally Posted by MrFix

And yeah, I want the mechanical answer to it all, rather than GM Fiat or whatever, because GMs differ, but rules themselves rarely do, so I'd like a page number for the Very Good reaction thing in Social Engineering - can't seem to find it.

Here's the mechanical answer, from "Reaction Rolls" on B495:

"Random reaction rolls are great when they add a note of unpredictability to the game – this is more fun for the GM, too! However, never substitute random die rolls for reason and logic."

That is a rule, in black and white: Reaction rolls (and thus Influence rolls, which are just a PC substituting an Influence skill roll for a reaction roll, B359) are not something that work as rolled every time, unlike hitting someone or casting a spell. "GM fiat" is built into the rule, and is what acts as a balancing factor.

If surrender makes sense as a result of successful Intimidation, then the foe surrenders. If the GM feels that NO amount of success on Sex Appeal makes sense in a situation, it Just Doesn't Work. That's in the rules, as written.