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Old 04-23-2013, 10:10 AM   #1
sclose1970
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Default [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

I'm confused about the difference in usage between the Hinting technique (SE81), the new Elicitation technique included in Pyramid 3-54, pg.5, and the Fortune Telling skill (B196).

While Elicitation seems to be clearly used for only requests for information without being overt, the wording for Hinting seems to indicate to me that it can accomplish the same thing, as it doesn't rule out requests for information as one of its uses.

This also adds to my confusion over the usage of Fortune Telling as a skill. It seems odd to me that, while it is not considered an Influence skill, it can accomplish the same thing as both Hinting and Elicitation. Is the usage for Fortune Telling more focused on telling people what they want to hear, thereby inducing them to share more information? If so, how or why does this need to be a separate skill from other Influence skills?
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:54 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

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Originally Posted by sclose1970 View Post
I'm confused about the difference in usage between the Hinting technique (SE81), the new Elicitation technique included in Pyramid 3-54, pg.5, and the Fortune Telling skill (B196).

While Elicitation seems to be clearly used for only requests for information without being overt, the wording for Hinting seems to indicate to me that it can accomplish the same thing, as it doesn't rule out requests for information as one of its uses.
In Hinting, I want to know whether the company you manage is going to do a stock split, and I'm willing to reward you for the information, but I don't want other people to be aware of the transaction. So I convey my interest to you indirectly, in a way that you will understand (and may choose to act on) but witnesses won't.

In Elicitation, I want to know the same thing, but I don't want to offer you a payoff, or have you realize I'm trying to find it out. So I get you talking about some aspect of your work and your business plans, and in the course of the conversation, you reveal to me the thing I want to know, but you don't realize that you've done it.

In one case, I have your complicity. In the other, I lack it.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:55 AM   #3
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

Hinting (or rather, subtlety which the Hinting technique can ameliorate the penalty for) makes your use of influence covert from bystanders. Elicitation makes your extraction of information covert from the subject.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:59 AM   #4
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

Am I thinking correctly that if you want your elicitation to be covert from anyone other than the subject you would want to use it together with subtlety penalties?
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Am I thinking correctly that if you want your elicitation to be covert from anyone other than the subject you would want to use it together with subtlety penalties?
That's an interesting question. I can see arguments to be made both ways. Let me think about it.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:13 PM   #6
sclose1970
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

So, if you want to conceal your intentions from EVERYBODY, would you use both penalties, and base it off the lowest technique?

Also, per the OP, what role does the Fortune Telling skill play in the influence game, as it seems as if could be used for similar purposes as Elicitation?
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

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Originally Posted by sclose1970 View Post
So, if you want to conceal your intentions from EVERYBODY, would you use both penalties, and base it off the lowest technique?
The author is apparently thinking about how Elicitation interacts with bystander observation. But supposing that it has no effect on bystander observation, you would apply both penalties and both techniques. When multiple techniques are used together, they stack.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:38 PM   #8
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

Fortune Telling certainly elicits information from the subject. In fact, it's a major part of the skill. But, the focus is different.

Cold reading is opportunistic; you can use a great many tidbits to your advantage. And classic methods are often broad, "shotgunning" vague information to be refined via the subject's feedback, or making statements that are true of a broad range of people, or flexible enough that anyone can identify with it. The cold reader then picks up on responses and take it further.

That's enough to suit the usual goal of the performance or con, but it does give up control over the specific facts you're looking for. If you really wanted to know about the impending stock split, it doesn't much help if you find out the manager's aunt was named Eleanor and that she died of pneumonia, even if the subject is amazed that you know those things.

I'd allow elicitation based on the Fortune Telling skill, but at a penalty for seeking specific information, which limits both what you can say in hopes of heading in the right direction, and deprives you of making use of a lot of potential responses from the subject. (Lacking the Pyramid article, I can't compare to those rules, but they're probably about right.)

The other difference of Fortune Telling from an Influence skill is that includes that bit of Performance. You're convincing the mark that you have mystic powers or supernatural contacts, either for entertainment or for real -- generally to cash in that false confidence in some other con. There's certainly a resemblance to influence skills, but it's kind of an oddly limited area for changing reaction bonuses. There's a relationship to Fast Talk, and I suppose you could view Intimidation as just convincing someone "you're a scary guy that will hurt them", immediately converted into compliance.

If you actually worm your way into someone's confidence as their spiritual advisor, they might well tell you all sorts of things freely. This might be more of a long-term payoff than an actual application the skill. You'd be using the skill to maintain your favored position.
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Old 04-23-2013, 01:18 PM   #9
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

Dunno, that kinda makes Fortune-Telling a very narrow skill, despite the fact that it already requires specialization.
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:10 PM   #10
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering] Hinting, Elicitation, and Fortune Telling

That's a good point. If the skill is going to show up as more than background flavor, you have to answer the gamist question "why is it worth my points?"
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