Fast-Draw critical failure

ArchonShiva · 07-17-2020, 08:19 AM

What happens to your maneuver on a critical failure?

Adventurers p.76 says "Failure forces you to use your turn for a Ready maneuver to draw it normally. Critical failure means you drop it."

The lead designer on some other game said "If you Fast-Draw at the start of your turn, then failure means you must use that turn for Ready. If you Fast-Draw later in your turn [...] failure ends your turn then and there, and forces you to take a Ready next turn.", which seems like it should apply to DFRPG as well.
(excised words that were obviously misspoken)

What about a critical failure, though? You can't Ready your weapon if it's on the ground, but if the Ready maneuver is only a consequence of failure and not of critical failure, there will be cases where critical failure is preferable. This may or may not be correct.

Example of preferring critical failure: Turn 1 AOA double, throw knife, fast-draw knife
Failure: Wastes second attack, turn 2 (forced) Ready knife
Critical Failure: Wastes second attack, turn 2 Attack, fast-draw new knife!

Imbicatus · 07-17-2020, 09:03 AM

It’s a free action to drop an item, you can intentionally drop something at any time during any action. If you have a normal failure and unready the item, you can always intentionally drop it if you choose.

Yssa · 07-17-2020, 05:45 PM

"If you Fast-Draw later in your turn [...] failure ends your turn then and there, and forces you to take a Ready next turn." If you fail a fast draw roll (critically or not) the ONLY thing you can do on your next turn is ready that weapon. On a critical failure, that weapon is now on the ground, but you still need to try to ready it. A lenient GM might say you could use that next turn to pick up the weapon. A more RAW GM might say you spend that next turn fumbling at your empty sheath or grasping at the item as it falls through the air. The fact that readying the weapon is impossible doesn't let you out of "forces you to take a Ready next turn."

Perhaps similarly, if an enemy had sleight-of-handfully stolen the PCs blade and the PC hadn't noticed until they took a Ready maneuver to draw their blade, I don't think I'd let them take another action that turn: they used their turn-second trying to draw their blade, it just happened to be impossible under the circumstances.

DouglasCole · 07-17-2020, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yssa

"If you Fast-Draw later in your turn [...] failure ends your turn then and there, and forces you to take a Ready next turn." If you fail a fast draw roll (critically or not) the ONLY thing you can do on your next turn is ready that weapon. On a critical failure, that weapon is now on the ground, but you still need to try to ready it. A lenient GM might say you could use that next turn to pick up the weapon. A more RAW GM might say you spend that next turn fumbling at your empty sheath or grasping at the item as it falls through the air. The fact that readying the weapon is impossible doesn't let you out of "forces you to take a Ready next turn."

Perhaps similarly, if an enemy had sleight-of-handfully stolen the PCs blade and the PC hadn't noticed until they took a Ready maneuver to draw their blade, I don't think I'd let them take another action that turn: they used their turn-second trying to draw their blade, it just happened to be impossible under the circumstances.

Considering how long I can fumble for dropped keys in my car, I find this rationale eminently plausible.

Dalin · 07-17-2020, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yssa

Perhaps similarly, if an enemy had sleight-of-handfully stolen the PCs blade and the PC hadn't noticed until they took a Ready maneuver to draw their blade, I don't think I'd let them take another action that turn.

I agree and "sleight-of-handfully" is my new favorite phrase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Considering how long I can fumble for dropped keys in my car, I find this rationale eminently plausible.

Oh the stories my students could tell you of my many magnificent critical fumbles in the classroom. Indeed, such thoughts lead me to conclude that some critical failures should include a persistent IQ penalty (or mental stun!) from sheer embarrassment.

Black Leviathan · 07-20-2020, 09:40 AM

I've bungled some draws pretty badly and launched knives or swords across the room, but generally I'd say that fast-draws crit failure is a drop. It is a drop that you can't do anything about this round and you can't fast-draw next round unless you've practiced fast-draw from the ground, so it's a pretty big mess.

ULFGARD · 07-21-2020, 02:21 PM

Dropping an arrow can be extremely BAD. The incredible archer in my campaign was firing an arrow with an "alchemical" head, allowing it to act as a potion delivery system. Unfortunately, he was shooting alchemist fire when he dropped it, and spent the rest of the combat learning how to drop and roll (unsuccessfully - he almost died).

Chris_0369 · 08-17-2020, 09:35 AM

Just a thought on the story aspect of critically failing a fast draw. Dropping is an option but there is also the possibility of throwing whatever it is you are quick drawing. I.E. quick draw a pistol and the pistol is flung across the room. While comical, it could happen. Adding insult to injury, should said character fling their weapon across the room, it could possibly end up being caught by their intended target.
I have had an instance where I went to grab my keys to hand to a friend and accidentally flung the keys at them. Rules wise, you could possibly add a follow on DEX check to see if they still retain their weapon and make it unready, drop it all together or it goes flying through the air depending on the margin of failure for the DEX check.

DAT · 09-30-2020, 09:21 PM

I do a drop/throw a random direction and distance for Critical Failed Fast-Draws. When fast drawing one item from a bunch (e.g., an arrow or bolt from a quiver), I also give it a change to drop the bunch (e.g., after a critical failure on a fast draw, a 6 on a d6 means dropping the quiver of arrows).

The most hilarious case was the Samurai Themed Wood-Elf Scout-Knight (Heroic Archer and bow and katana Weapon Master) who completely disarmed himself in one combat against three Giant Spiders.

Turn 1: Rolls to ready his bow, 6+6+6, throws it 3 yards out in front of himself (doesn't bother with the fast draw ready arrow roll).
Turn 2: Rolls to fast draw his katana, 6+6+6, throws it 2 yards into the wall to his right, narrowly missing another PC (10 vs 9).
Turn 3: Rolls to fast draw his wakizashi, 6+6+6, throws it 3 yards into the wall to his left, narrowly missing another PC (11 vs 9).
Turn 4: Rolls to fast draw his tanto, 6+6+6, throws it 4 yards into the wall behind him, narrowly missing another PC (11 vs 9).
Turn 5: Rolls to fast draw an arrow to stab a Giant Spider by hand, 6+6+6 and 6, drops the quiver of arrows at his feet.

Dalin · 09-30-2020, 09:49 PM

I trust that afterwards, the player threw out those dice and the character invested in Luck?

07-17-2020, 08:19 AM	#1
ArchonShiva Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Fast-Draw critical failure What happens to your maneuver on a critical failure? Adventurers p.76 says "Failure forces you to use your turn for a Ready maneuver to draw it normally. Critical failure means you drop it." The lead designer on some other game said "If you Fast-Draw at the start of your turn, then failure means you must use that turn for Ready. If you Fast-Draw later in your turn [...] failure ends your turn then and there, and forces you to take a Ready next turn.", which seems like it should apply to DFRPG as well. (excised words that were obviously misspoken) What about a critical failure, though? You can't Ready your weapon if it's on the ground, but if the Ready maneuver is only a consequence of failure and not of critical failure, there will be cases where critical failure is preferable. This may or may not be correct. Example of preferring critical failure: Turn 1 AOA double, throw knife, fast-draw knife Failure: Wastes second attack, turn 2 (forced) Ready knife Critical Failure: Wastes second attack, turn 2 Attack, fast-draw new knife! __________________ Per-based Stealth isn’t remotely as awkward as DX-based Observation. Last edited by ArchonShiva; 07-17-2020 at 08:35 AM. Reason: clarification

07-17-2020, 09:03 AM	#2
Imbicatus Join Date: Sep 2016	Re: Fast-Draw critical failure It’s a free action to drop an item, you can intentionally drop something at any time during any action. If you have a normal failure and unready the item, you can always intentionally drop it if you choose.

07-17-2020, 05:45 PM	#3
Yssa Join Date: Mar 2019	Re: Fast-Draw critical failure "If you Fast-Draw later in your turn [...] failure ends your turn then and there, and forces you to take a Ready next turn." If you fail a fast draw roll (critically or not) the ONLY thing you can do on your next turn is ready that weapon. On a critical failure, that weapon is now on the ground, but you still need to try to ready it. A lenient GM might say you could use that next turn to pick up the weapon. A more RAW GM might say you spend that next turn fumbling at your empty sheath or grasping at the item as it falls through the air. The fact that readying the weapon is impossible doesn't let you out of "forces you to take a Ready next turn." Perhaps similarly, if an enemy had sleight-of-handfully stolen the PCs blade and the PC hadn't noticed until they took a Ready maneuver to draw their blade, I don't think I'd let them take another action that turn: they used their turn-second trying to draw their blade, it just happened to be impossible under the circumstances.

07-20-2020, 09:40 AM	#6
Black Leviathan Join Date: Sep 2018	Re: Fast-Draw critical failure I've bungled some draws pretty badly and launched knives or swords across the room, but generally I'd say that fast-draws crit failure is a drop. It is a drop that you can't do anything about this round and you can't fast-draw next round unless you've practiced fast-draw from the ground, so it's a pretty big mess.

07-21-2020, 02:21 PM	#7
ULFGARD Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Seattle	Re: Fast-Draw critical failure Dropping an arrow can be extremely BAD. The incredible archer in my campaign was firing an arrow with an "alchemical" head, allowing it to act as a potion delivery system. Unfortunately, he was shooting alchemist fire when he dropped it, and spent the rest of the combat learning how to drop and roll (unsuccessfully - he almost died). __________________ Seven Kingdoms, MH (as yet unnamed), and my "pick-up" DF game war stories, characters, and other ruminations can be found here.

08-17-2020, 09:35 AM	#8
Chris_0369 Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Bremerton, Wa	Re: Fast-Draw critical failure Just a thought on the story aspect of critically failing a fast draw. Dropping is an option but there is also the possibility of throwing whatever it is you are quick drawing. I.E. quick draw a pistol and the pistol is flung across the room. While comical, it could happen. Adding insult to injury, should said character fling their weapon across the room, it could possibly end up being caught by their intended target. I have had an instance where I went to grab my keys to hand to a friend and accidentally flung the keys at them. Rules wise, you could possibly add a follow on DEX check to see if they still retain their weapon and make it unready, drop it all together or it goes flying through the air depending on the margin of failure for the DEX check. __________________ Friendly fire aint. It is also not wise to share a foxhole with a guy who is after glory.

09-30-2020, 09:21 PM	#9
DAT Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Idaho Falls, Idaho	Re: Fast-Draw critical failure I do a drop/throw a random direction and distance for Critical Failed Fast-Draws. When fast drawing one item from a bunch (e.g., an arrow or bolt from a quiver), I also give it a change to drop the bunch (e.g., after a critical failure on a fast draw, a 6 on a d6 means dropping the quiver of arrows). The most hilarious case was the Samurai Themed Wood-Elf Scout-Knight (Heroic Archer and bow and katana Weapon Master) who completely disarmed himself in one combat against three Giant Spiders. Turn 1: Rolls to ready his bow, 6+6+6, throws it 3 yards out in front of himself (doesn't bother with the fast draw ready arrow roll). Turn 2: Rolls to fast draw his katana, 6+6+6, throws it 2 yards into the wall to his right, narrowly missing another PC (10 vs 9). Turn 3: Rolls to fast draw his wakizashi, 6+6+6, throws it 3 yards into the wall to his left, narrowly missing another PC (11 vs 9). Turn 4: Rolls to fast draw his tanto, 6+6+6, throws it 4 yards into the wall behind him, narrowly missing another PC (11 vs 9). Turn 5: Rolls to fast draw an arrow to stab a Giant Spider by hand, 6+6+6 and 6, drops the quiver of arrows at his feet.

09-30-2020, 09:49 PM	#10
Dalin Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Saint Paul, MN	Re: Fast-Draw critical failure I trust that afterwards, the player threw out those dice and the character invested in Luck?