Fantasy Trip Illusions

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Oneiros

Except the line you quoted (emphais mine)



could also be read that the rock hit the wall, so a rock or arrow interacting with a wall illusion would cause the wall to vanish. It doesn't state a creature has to hit the wall.

Except that the part you highlighted clearly refers to IMAGES, not ILLUSIONS.

[BrotherBill]

Originally Posted by Oneiros

Except the line you quoted (emphais mine)



could also be read that the rock hit the wall, so a rock or arrow interacting with a wall illusion would cause the wall to vanish. It doesn't state a creature has to hit the wall.

The image vanishes because that's what happens when they are touched. The illusion should survive impact.

I would give illusions a sort of temporary reality. This would resolve a lot of argument over "what would happen if..." You should find real damage on the armor of a figure killed by an illusory swordsman. Images have the appearance of reality; illusions have "borrowed" reality, more akin to a summoning, but cheaper and subject to disbelief.

[Oneiros]

Originally Posted by JLV

Except that the part you highlighted clearly refers to IMAGES, not ILLUSIONS.

Yep. That's what I get for not reviewing my copy of Wizard first before replying :$

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by JLV

Actually, this post from a different thread raises what might be a large loop-hole in the rules. I'll quote it in its entirety here so everyone understands my point:



My question is this: shouldn't a character be able to automatically disbelieve an illusion of himself? He probably should still be required to declare he's disbelieving (and lose his opportunity to make an attack), but shouldn't be required to roll for success since he patently KNOWS the other version of him can't be real -- it wasn't summoned, because he's still there and in control of himself -- and couldn't fight with himself that way anyway -- so it has to be an Image or Illusion, and thus he should be able disbelieve with absolutely no problem. Obviously his friends might not be able to figure out which is which, especially if they weren't in the room when the illusion appeared, but the person himself? Absolutely.

I think this loophole should be closed in the next edition of TFT...

(Great story, though! And obviously, closing this loophole makes things like "doppelgangers" more useful than they might otherwise be...)

I don't think so. "Disbelieving" is a misnomer. It's actually a very simple spell that unravels the illusion if successfully cast. The short story at the front of Wizard explicitly states that the protagonist's opponent *knows* that he's facing an illusion, but he still fails to disbelieve.

If you don't agree with this explanation, I see no problem with giving a bonus to someone attempting to disbelieve in cases where they are certain they are facing an illusion. I wouldn't make it automatic, though. I draw inspiration from the treatment of illusions in the classic Trek episode "Spectre of the Gun". Even though the humans *knew* they were facing illusions, the slightest uncertainty would doom them. Hence Spock's telepathic hypnosis.

And yeah, that was an epic campaign. I had the perfect mix of players - enough "flakes" to keep things interesting and enough "stables" to keep the game more or less on track.

[BrotherBill]

Questions--if you set a lit torch on an urn full of gunpowder that had an illusion for a lid, would it simultaneously remain there with a torch on top AND explode as the torch falls in? If Schrodinger's cat used the illusion of a litter box, would you find a puddle in the morning?

[JLV]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

I don't think so. "Disbelieving" is a misnomer. It's actually a very simple spell that unravels the illusion if successfully cast. The short story at the front of Wizard explicitly states that the protagonist's opponent *knows* that he's facing an illusion, but he still fails to disbelieve.

If you don't agree with this explanation, I see no problem with giving a bonus to someone attempting to disbelieve in cases where they are certain they are facing an illusion. I wouldn't make it automatic, though. I draw inspiration from the treatment of illusions in the classic Trek episode "Spectre of the Gun". Even though the humans *knew* they were facing illusions, the slightest uncertainty would doom them. Hence Spock's telepathic hypnosis.

And yeah, that was an epic campaign. I had the perfect mix of players - enough "flakes" to keep things interesting and enough "stables" to keep the game more or less on track.

Actually, if you read my later comments on this, you'll see that I said exactly that -- it was a spell taught to everyone in order to allow the average person to disbelieve an illusion cast by a crazed or evil person. Because it pretty clearly indicates that in the game rules...

It seems to me you also somewhat undermined your point about not making it automatic, when you used the Star Trek example -- Spock's hypnotism CONVINCED them that everything was only an illusion -- therefore, in the episode, they *automatically* disbelieved everything... ;-)

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by JLV

Actually, if you read my later comments on this, you'll see that I said exactly that -- it was a spell taught to everyone in order to allow the average person to disbelieve an illusion cast by a crazed or evil person. Because it pretty clearly indicates that in the game rules...

It seems to me you also somewhat undermined your point about not making it automatic, when you used the Star Trek example -- Spock's hypnotism CONVINCED them that everything was only an illusion -- therefore, in the episode, they *automatically* disbelieved everything... ;-)

My point was that *any* doubt was sufficient to cause the illusions to be dangerous. And that merely knowing something is an illusion is insufficient - you must succeed in a mental effort that the average person will fail about 50% of the time.

Anyhow, the actual explanation for illusions in TFT is equivalent to Star Trek Next Gen technobabble (necrobabble? legederbabble? thaumababble? arcanababble?). So if you want to alter the ground rules, I have no problem with that. I think that illusions of known people can add a lot to a game - as my example showed - so I personally wouldn't nerf that.

(I'd add that the player made that story work. He roleplayed it, even though it put his character in serious jeopardy. A munchkin would've argued "of course I don't really think I'm that great.")

And I never got the idea that disbelieving was a spell that was actually taught to people. Rather, it seemed to me to be a spell that people "just know".

[JLV]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

My point was that *any* doubt was sufficient to cause the illusions to be dangerous. And that merely knowing something is an illusion is insufficient - you must succeed in a mental effort that the average person will fail about 50% of the time.

Anyhow, the actual explanation for illusions in TFT is equivalent to Star Trek Next Gen technobabble (necrobabble? legederbabble? thaumababble? arcanababble?). So if you want to alter the ground rules, I have no problem with that. I think that illusions of known people can add a lot to a game - as my example showed - so I personally wouldn't nerf that.

(I'd add that the player made that story work. He roleplayed it, even though it put his character in serious jeopardy. A munchkin would've argued "of course I don't really think I'm that great.")

And I never got the idea that disbelieving was a spell that was actually taught to people. Rather, it seemed to me to be a spell that people "just know".

Definitely "arcanobabble!"

Not to beat a dead horse to death again, but I figured that if one cannot fight oneself, then one MUST know either that the opponent is an illusion or something else (doppelganger), and if it acts exactly like you, then it is almost certainly an illusion.

But you will note, in my original post on this, I stated that the individual involved still must "disbelieve" the creature, and lose an action by so doing, even though the success was certain if the creature actually WAS an illusion. And if the disbelief didn't work, then clearly it was something else, and therefore the individual must still fight -- just like any other *failed* disbelief attempt. Put another way, I've got all the bases covered, except making the individual actually roll the dice -- which actually saves a bit of time.

Nor do I disagree with "illusions of known people" in any way -- just that if the illusion of the "known person" is of ME, then clearly, I know it ISN'T me, and should have an advantage in disbelieving it. Not, you will agree, an impossible position to understand...

[Steve Jackson]

And if I were just commenting on someone else's game, rather than making trouble for myself, I might say:

If disbelieving is a "psychic exercise," then should it be a learnable Talent that gives a significant bonus on disbelief?

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

And if I were just commenting on someone else's game, rather than making trouble for myself, I might say:

If disbelieving is a "psychic exercise," then should it be a learnable Talent that gives a significant bonus on disbelief?

That's an interesting idea. But if it's a learnable talent or spell taught to everyone for safety reasons (which is certainly what it sounds like), then isn't it already "taken" by the time the character reaches late teens and thus enters the game?