Combat Modifiers and AdjDX

[Allensh]

On page 115 of ITL, it says that missle and thrown weapon DX adjustments do not count for determining which figure attacks first.

Does that mean that other things like facing to-hit bonuses and the like DO adjust this? Another good reason to get behind your enemy I suppose :)

Allen

[hcobb]

Yes, you can jump somebody from behind before they can react.

Q: Does the facing of the target change a wizard's adjDX for an occult strike two hexes behind the wizard?

[tomc]

A: No. The target's facing doesn't matter for missile or thrown weapons. It shouldn't matter here.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by tomc

A: No. The target's facing doesn't matter for missile or thrown weapons. It shouldn't matter here.

My understanding is that Facing bonus does apply to thrown weapons. It specifically states facing does not affect magic in ITL section on facing. And in the missile weapons section pg 115 it specifically states that Missile weapons do not get this DX adjustment. But the Thrown weapons section pg 114 has no such statement. I believe the screen and Wizard DX summary are also consistent with this.

I would be interested in other's take on this.

BTW, it raises the question how to treat Thrown weapons with Missile weapon modifiers regarding facing. That is: Boomerang and Spear Thrower.

[Skarg]

We never gave facing adjustments to any ranged attacks (missile, thrown, or magic).

[FireHorse]

Skarg: It's slightly off the OP's question, but why would missile attacks not get the facing bonus? The facing bonus reflects the target's lack of awareness of the attack, and resulting lack of defensive action (evasion / dodging / parrying / whatever) — and that certainly seems (to me, anyway) to apply to incoming projectiles, just as much as to handheld weapons.

To the OP's point, though: Precisely because that facing bonus reflects a lack of defensive action from the target — not the actual 'speed' of either party involved — I would argue that it has nothing to do with Initiative.

In other words: Being behind the lightning-fast Dark Elf Fencer might give you a great shot at his back because he's not trying to dodge it, but that doesn't mean you'll make that shot before he guts the poor sod standing right in front of him.

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

My understanding is that Facing bonus does apply to thrown weapons.
. . .
I believe the screen and Wizard DX summary are also consistent with this.

The DX adjustments from Melee (p. 10) also seem to infer support for this. When listing the facing modifiers, there is this solitary note:

NOTE: Missile weapon attacks don't get DX adds for facing.

Thrown weapons are conspicuously absent from the note.

Originally Posted by FireHorse

Skarg: It's slightly off the OP's question, but why would missile attacks not get the facing bonus? The facing bonus reflects the target's lack of awareness of the attack, and resulting lack of defensive action (evasion / dodging / parrying / whatever) — and that certainly seems (to me, anyway) to apply to incoming projectiles, just as much as to handheld weapons.

Maybe, by default, missile weapon attacks are generally assumed to be hard to defend against because of their speed and potential distance. Since ranged attacks don't automatically get the presumed +4 bonus for this, maybe their model is different than regular attacks for other reasons.

~~~

If they print a revision of In The Labyrinth, I would love to see it include the DX Bonuses and Penalties from the GM screen with a bit more explanation and elaboration.

And just to be clear, as has been mentioned, we are discussing two separate but related issues here: (1) DX adjustments for facing, and (2) the effects of DX adjustments on action sequence.

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by Tom H.

Since ranged attacks don't automatically get the presumed +4 bonus for [facing], maybe their model is different than regular attacks for other reasons.

…

And just to be clear, as has been mentioned, we are discussing two separate but related issues here: (1) DX adjustments for facing, and (2) the effects of DX adjustments on action sequence.

I could (and would) argue about whether missile weapons should get the facing bonus for an attack, but the Rule does clearly say NO. And if they don't get it for an attack, then they definitely shouldn't get it for initiative either.

[Skarg]

@FireHorse Yes, I think the intended rule is that neither thrown or missile weapons would get the bonus.

There is some logic in your suggestion that there should be an advantage in shooting people in the back (other than they would be less likely to think to take the Dodge option).

However I think the degree should not be so great. Hitting figures in combat with ranged weapons shouldn't be too easy, and giving a +4 would make it quite easy.

I think the reasoning is that the difficulty of a melee attack is about the target being able to interfere with the attack, which they can't do very well from the side or rear.

In a non-combat (or pre-combat) situation, you can aim at the person standing facing the other way for two turns and get a +2. That seems more like the appropriate amount of advantage for shooting someone in the back, to me.

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by Skarg

@FireHorse Yes, I think the intended rule is that neither thrown or missile weapons would get the bonus.

Rather than the Facing section [ITL 106], see Missile Weapons [ITL 115]: "Missile weapons never get a bonus for the target’s facing."

I assume a thrown weapon counts as a "missile" too, not just arrows and bolts…?

… In a non-combat (or pre-combat) situation, you can aim at the person standing facing the other way for two turns and get a +2. That seems more like the appropriate amount of advantage for shooting someone in the back, to me.

That seems like a 'Careful Aiming' kinda thing, which ought to apply regardless of facing, so long as the target's not moving. (A soldier standing guard, for example, and you need to pick him off before approaching the gate.)