04-21-2013, 11:22 PM | #41 |
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
I had always thought where you aimed to hit with a cone is how far the cone goes and where the spread point is (so a 5yd cone pointing 2yds away creates a very wide but shallow cone). Now that I see it written, I'm not sure it makes as much sense, but I've never had anyone (ever) get a cone attack that wasn't 1 yd wide (to give a giant beam feel).
Since guns and other IAs can go further than the intended target, it seems that you could aim at something closer. What I think Langy is trying to get across is; aim at what you are trying to actually hit. If I'm trying to hit a barbarian who's 20yds away, it's easier than trying to hit one 100yds away. But if there are two barbarians at those distances, and they happen to be in about a straight line, then you can 'accidentally' hit the closer one by aiming at the further one. To make things most fair, I'd say that the penalty for distance (at least on cones) does not increase critical failure chance, so combined with the +4 for hitting a specific spot and scatter rules being only off by yards for miss, you might be incapable of missing someone who's only yards away from you. |
04-22-2013, 02:13 AM | #42 |
Join Date: May 2009
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
Take the two characters in the picture.
If you really want to hit the first one. Roll to hit the first one. If it misses calculate scatter and draw another aiming line. If it hits Then roll to hit the second one. If it hits keep following the line. If it misses calculate scatter and draw another aiming line. And make it make sense. Then mark on the actual cone, and potentially realise they were both hit. If you really want to hit the second one. Roll to hit the second one. If it hits, laugh you hit the first one without rolling. If it misses calculate scatter and draw another aiming line. And make it make sense. In combat people move. The world doesn't really pause to let you line up your area effects.
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Maxwell Kensington "Snotkins" Von Smacksalot III |
04-22-2013, 04:26 AM | #43 |
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
Maybe I'm being thick, but I'm not understanding the "targeting body parts" examples at all. First off, I thought large-area injury attacks like cones had to hit the entire body. Secondly, I still have no idea how I would adjudicate where the cone goes after I hit.
If I instead have to target a particular hex (as opposed to a point, as the RAW seems to imply), then I get bizarre results on a hex map. Depending on the orientation of the map, there might be a hex right next to mine that I could target to hit a far away opponent, or I might need to choose a further one. Surely the way we happen to superimpose the map shouldn't make such a huge difference. I have no idea what the written intention is, but I'm inclined to simply forget about range penalties for cones and let people just place the cone however they want. Maybe I'll drop the +4 for game balance. |
04-22-2013, 06:51 AM | #44 | |||
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
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This also works if it were a hit; at a success by 0, then the cone hits about half a yard from the center of the target (SM+0, -2 for circular = SM-2, which is 1 yard; take half of that and you get your deviance). On a success by 2, the cone hits 0.75 feet from the center of the target. Etc. Quote:
Remember: Cones attacks do not always hit the center of their target, even on a success. The orientation of the battlemap shouldn't change this, so don't allow it to do so. |
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04-22-2013, 08:09 AM | #45 | |
Fightin' Round the World
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
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I'm happy to admit I don't really understand how cones are meant to be run - but I'm unhappy to accept an answer that seems contrary to what is written in the rulebooks. Why do I need to accept a hit location based penalty for an attack that says not to use hit locations? Why can't I just pick a direction and fire without a specific target, really, if everything between me and 100 yards out in a cone-shaped area gets hit? I'm thinking "dragon breathes down the hallway" kind of moves, here, where I can't see it missing. I'm just going to go and try some cone attacks out on my own and see what happens, see what seems fair, and run with that.
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Peter V. Dell'Orto aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD My Author Page My S&C Blog My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog "You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev |
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04-22-2013, 08:14 AM | #46 | |
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
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Related question: are these your house rules, or do you think the RAW really implies all of this complexity with respect to multiple targets? Maybe it would be better to think of a cone as an area effect attack with a cone-shaped area of effect rather than a circular one... |
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04-22-2013, 08:19 AM | #47 | ||
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
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Basically, you have to do the same as you would for any other attack. Treat it like a normal attack! Stop trying to game the system, because the way you're doing it is wrong and doesn't work with the way the rules as written work. You ask why you can't just shoot in the general direction of someone and it automatically hits him - and the reason why is that that's not how GURPS works. Nothing in the rules supports that interpretation, and it further doesn't make any logical sense, so it's obviously wrong. As for 'dragon breaths down a hallway', in that case the roll is to see if the dragon actually breaths perfectly down the hallway or if he instead fires off-center and the flame wastes itself on a wall or something. You could just as well ask about firing a gun down a hallway; it's still possible to hit the floor, ceiling, or walls if you miss. Also, realize that the cone won't cover the entirety of the hallway until its far enough away, and a small deviation from the perfect angle can mean a large deviation in how far away the flame blast hits at 100 yards. (note: this assumes that the flame breath doesn't bounce around off the walls and instead just goes right through them, as GURPS doesn't have rules for flame blasts/explosions in tight spaces that I know of, or at least that work with the cone rules) |
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04-22-2013, 08:21 AM | #48 | ||
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
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04-22-2013, 01:25 PM | #49 | |
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
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That seems weird to me. I'm still inclined to think of it more like an area attack with a conical area. Which is consistent with it being priced similarly to area effect, although I suppose the total area a typical cone covers is much larger... |
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04-22-2013, 03:39 PM | #50 |
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
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Re: Targeting cone attacks
Rereading over cones, they seem to be half-ranged attacks half-area attacks. So, I think the best way to deal with them (this keeps what I can gather from the rules the same, and makes it so cones makes sense);
Figure where the furthest spot the cone can hit. Take the penalty for distance (this does not make critical failures happen) Add +4 for hitting a hex (as per B414) You may aim. (I'm not sure if Cone Attacks should keep 1/2 range or not) When (or if, if you have high skill) you miss, use Scatter rules as per B414. Lastly, line up your cone based on where you hit. Let's take unaltered IA and add Cone 5. We have Acc3, Max 100. We aim turn 1. Turn 2, we shoot 100yds away. We get +3 for aiming, +4 for hex, -10 for distance. We didn't buy up DX, so we are rolling against a 7. We roll 10. Missing by 3 yards, wherever we aimed, that is the end spot for the cone. We rolled a 5 on scatter, so it shoots left 3 yds. Now we look at the barbarian that was sitting in that direction 20yds away. Since he is less than 1/5 distance away and we missed by only 3 yds, he gets hit. There's no way we could possibly miss him. Now let's say we rolled a 16 and didn't aim. We missed by 12. We would veer far off course at the end, but since the cone is a yard wide at 20yds, we only barely missed the barbarian (My math is a bit fuzzy. Maybe we did hit him. I don't remember if we use sine or cosine here, but having a grid makes this much easier). But this is a dragon we are talking about. Let's say it has Innate Attack: Breathe at 15. Even with the total -3, he could roll a 16 to still hit the barbarian. And if we are shooting down a hall, if we miss by less than the cone's width, we would still hit the entire hallway. That dragon could roll a 16 and bake a 100yd long 1yd wide hallway. (This would be a lot easier to explain with a grid, but should be easy enough to visualize) My point is, it seems like you should 'attack' as though it's a ranged attack, but then put down the 'area' before figuring out what actually happens. If we wanted to get even more mathy, let's say we are attacking the barbarian directly, and don't care one tiny bit what's behind him (we are a dragon, after all). Roll as normal to hit him (15 skill, -6 for distance, +1 for SM, We didn't bother to aim or to think to hit the ground where he stands. He insulted our treasure). Roll against a 10. But we rolled 12! We missed by two. To keep the cone consistent, we'd roll scatter as though it were at the edge of the cone. But right now all we need is to care about the barbarian. Since he was 1/5 the max distance away, we miss by only 1/5 the margin of failure, rounded down (for keeping in with how it would work at distance). Since we now only missed by 2/5 of a yard, it would still hit him. If the GM actually cared where the end of the cone is, it's 2 yds off of a straight line through the barbarian. Now the cones turns into an area, and the barbarian must either Dodge and Drop to get out of the way. Does that make sense? The way i explained above was to make it so shooting directly or indirectly at the barbarian results in about the same thing happening. If there is a guy standing 80yds away, it's his fault for being too close to a dragon. And we can figure out, from the new area, whether or not that second guy is in it. Most importantly, you only aim to hit ONE thing. Everything else is determined by this new area as it is now a cone, not a ranged attack. |
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cone, rules question |
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