when is there HP damage for avoiding urination (Quick and Dirty Enchantment)

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The practical limit for Q&D with powerstones is about 100 per enchanter (using 90 point stones cast on cheap materials) -- a 90 point stone costs around $27k for one college, $44k for general, and allows 4 enchantments per year (worth $13,200 per mage; that's quite fast payoff, but there are other costs associated with maintaining such a circle).

Using non-cheap powerstones is nonsensical (more than ten times as expensive). There are tricks involving paut that significantly alter this, but unless you're allowing paut talismans it's generally not worthwhile.

$86,196.23 is the cost for materials according to the formula on Magic P.20 [(10xP^2 + 40xP) / (53/54) for a 90 Powerstone
And $1.800 the cost of labor (Px20)

For a total of $87,996.23 or 88k for a 90 energy Powerstone.

For a 100 Powerstone it's actually a little bit above 100k, so I rounded up.

The entire thread is discussing about either or not to be possible to use a Single College only Powerstone in any Enchantment outside the Enchantment College, because you are working with 2 different spells - and I dont believe you can.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

$86,196.23 is the cost for materials according to the formula on Magic P.20 [(10xP^2 + 40xP) / (53/54) for a 90 Powerstone
And $1.800 the cost of labor (Px20)

You can ignore that requirement by paying 4x energy cost. Which you should always do when making 2 or larger point stones (that formula is also wrong for other reasons; see https://sites.google.com/site/anthonysgurps/powerstones)

[KarlKost]

Actually I've made a mistake, that's why the prices on the table at M20 never made sense to me, and now it just clicked me. I was having problem understand the english, it was saying "to the power of" and only now it clicked me that it means elevated.

So the formula is:

[(10xP^2) + (40xP)] / (53/54)^P

That for a 90 energy Powerstone gives:

[(10x90x90)+(40x90) / (53/54)^90
= (81.000+3.600) / 0.18594730142
= 454967.613686

With labor costs at $1.800 that gives
= 456767.613686

Which the table rounded to $460.000

And the cost for a 100 energy Powerstone would round to $675.000

Which means that it is even more expensive than what I have had antecipated.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You can ignore that requirement by paying 4x energy cost. Which you should always do when making 2 or larger point stones (that formula is also wrong for other reasons; see https://sites.google.com/site/anthonysgurps/powerstones)

Ok, so a One College Powerstone made of cheap materials requires 48 energy per point. Ok. This means that, with Q&D allowing up to 800 energy for 8 hours of daily work, one such Powerstone can receive 16.6666 "charges" per day. Or 17 charges per day with 8 hours and a few minutes.
2 days it's 34, 3 it's 51 and so forth.

Ok, the only problem is the 53/54 chance of if getting a flaw (I dont even know if that number is just critical failure or any failure, I'll do the math later). This means that to actually make a 90 points Powerstone there's only a chance of (53/54)^90 of it having no failed rolls, or only 0.18594730142 - or 18.5% of a chance of success. This means that, 90 energy powerstone requires 4.320 energy; with a 18.5% chance of success, this means that, on average, you'll actually require 23.233 energy, so that means that such a powerstone would actually cost exactly that amount, or $23.300 rounding up, following the rules that each energy point costs $1. This also means that such stones will take an average of 1.367 days to be made each one, or 3 years, 9 months and 2 days - assuming enchanters have enough of other Powerstones to power it each day - requiring around 1000 energy each day which can come from different Powerstones in this case since you only need 48 energy at a time.

Yeah, that's actually a LOT cheaper than trying to use a jewel with the worthy of the Powerstone formula, althought it takes a lot more time to do it than using expensive jewels for it.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Ok, the only problem is the 53/54 chance of if getting a flaw.

The math there goes into it (it's actually assuming 50% of quirks are manageable, 50% are not, and thus uses 209/216). The first table tells you average castings per stone, which is 576 for 90 point stones, and can normally be finished in six months or so, though the bootstrapping process takes a while (if you have a circle of 2, it takes around 18 months to double your supply of stones and you need ~40 sets of stones to saturate your mages, so something like eight years to actually be in production. A circle of 3 is around three years but somewhat less cost effective later).

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Anthony

You can ignore that requirement by paying 4x energy cost. Which you should always do when making 2 or larger point stones (that formula is also wrong for other reasons; see https://sites.google.com/site/anthonysgurps/powerstones)

Ok, your math is pretty much correct about costs for cheap material PW (powerstones), the one thing thou I dont think you've being taking into consideration is the time required for doing them. For example, for making 90 points PWs you'd need an average of 4 years each per mage - this doesnt change by adding more mages, because more mages working on a single stone simply means less mages working on more stones. So, 2 mages could either make a single PW in 2 years or 2 in 4.

That however aint everything. A One College PW would serve for enchantments of the Enchantment College - but not for others. For that it would need an all purpose one. And to build an all purpose PW with 90 energy with cheap materials, it would require more or less 7 years each, on average. And it isnt everybody that has 7 years to spare like that.

Now, a 90 energy PW with the proper materials, all purpose, would cost $460k - insanely expensive, particularly for TL3, yes. However, costing 20x90 = 1.800 energy, but divided by (53/54)^90 = 9.681 energy, which gives a time (divided by 800 as the max per day) equal to 12.10125 or 13 days.

Actually, erase everything I said before - I dont know what crazy math I did previously, 23.233 energy takes 29.04125 days, or almost 30 days to complete - no, do not ask me why I came up with the previous number of 1.300 days, I seriously have no idea what crazy numbers I was doing.

Well, now that I have corrected my own crazy numbers, that's actually pretty doable! You can actually make a constant flow of 90 energy PW quirk free, all purpose and with cheap materials at an average one 1 such stone every 2 and a half months more or less! PER MAGE!

Wow! This is big!

Wait a minute... Now I have to throw a few numbers for even larger PWs... Because this could greatly increase the amount of energy possible for Q&D enchantment - maybe even allowing to go the full 800 energy possible for a day, or maybe even extending that just a little bit to perhaps 1.000 - this would have a MASSIVE impact on the economy!

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The math there goes into it (it's actually assuming 50% of quirks are manageable, 50% are not, and thus uses 209/216). The first table tells you average castings per stone, which is 576 for 90 point stones, and can normally be finished in six months or so, though the bootstrapping process takes a while (if you have a circle of 2, it takes around 18 months to double your supply of stones and you need ~40 sets of stones to saturate your mages, so something like eight years to actually be in production. A circle of 3 is around three years but somewhat less cost effective later).

Yes yes, that math really makes it possible for even a small circle of mages to create an industrious shop, but a MASSIVE guild/organization on an Empire could push this much, much further, specially if we consider that such an institution could have had CENTURIES to actually manufacture and stockpile THOUSANDS of powerful Powerstones... so all of a sudden, circles of mages being able to hold 200 energy Powerstones each - and each having access to 200 of them in order to always have one fully charged each day - it doesnt become so far fetched!

It is thus possible to have in "Roma Arcana" for example circles of enchanters able to make items up to 1.000 energy with Q&D each day!

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Yes yes, that math really makes it possible for even a small circle of mages to create an industrious shop, but a MASSIVE guild/organization on an Empire could push this much, much further, specially if we consider that such an institution could have had CENTURIES to actually manufacture and stockpile THOUSANDS of powerful Powerstones... so all of a sudden, circles of mages being able to hold 200 energy Powerstones each - and each having access to 200 of them in order to always have one fully charged each day - it doesnt become so far fetched!

It is thus possible to have in "Roma Arcana" for example circles of enchanters able to make items up to 1.000 energy with Q&D each day!

Actually forget that - I just made the calculations and for a 200 energy PW with cheap materials it would take 718 years with to build - and althout an expensive jewel would take a lot less (which would stills be more than 100 years), such a jewel would cost billions upon billion (I wont even dare trying to calculate).

So yes, I have to satisfy myself that 90 energy PWs is what the math allows us to have... Ho this is it.

Still, that's 100 energy for mages working with Q&D enchanting per mage per day, which for a master with 20 skill gives items that cost up to 600 energy per day. So that's the limit of Q&D enchanting.

[KarlKost]

Ok, so I remade everything and, to actually make a 90 energy quirk free it would take almost 22 months. Not so easy as I thought before, but still manageable, and quite possible to have in large quantities for a respectable Empire.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Yes yes, that math really makes it possible for even a small circle of mages to create an industrious shop, but a MASSIVE guild/organization on an Empire could push this much, much further, specially if we consider that such an institution could have had CENTURIES to actually manufacture and stockpile THOUSANDS of powerful Powerstones... so all of a sudden, circles of mages being able to hold 200 energy Powerstones each - and each having access to 200 of them in order to always have one fully charged each day - it doesnt become so far fetched!

Price goes up exponentially, past 100 it's cheaper to chug paut than to use increasingly large stones, and a 1,000 energy enchantment winds up at around 30k (which is better than 33k for S&S, but probably not enough better to bother creating the circle).

I didn't model the effects of mana levels; if you have access to high or very high mana warehouses, you reduce base rental cost by 50 or 75%, but then have to add an additional charge for the fact it's probably more expensive to rent space in high or very high mana areas (if it's an extra dollar a day in high mana, you want to use a high mana warehouse above 250 energy).