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Old 05-18-2019, 10:42 AM   #11
Pragmatic
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Default Re: Tolkienesque Worlds or Non-Tolkienesque Worlds?

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Originally Posted by EltonRobb View Post
Forgotten Realms is a Tolkien knock-off, so is Dragonlance to some degree.
That would make me a fan of Tolkien knock-offs. I blatantly and cheerfully "data mine" (plagiarize) from many sources, both literary and RPG.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:48 AM   #12
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I did a fantasy setting based off of the world of Alexander the Great. It's as grand as Ptolus, but I had to use the Fandom Wiki to publish it through. It's not Tolkienesque, I worked hard to change everything.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:14 AM   #13
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Default Re: Tolkienesque Worlds or Non-Tolkienesque Worlds?

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Originally Posted by EltonRobb View Post
Forgotten Realms is a Tolkien knock-off, so is Dragonlance to some degree.
To me, Tolkienesque means:
  • Elves that live forever rather than just a long time.
  • Elves as tall as humans.
  • Gnomes called hobbits and live in holes.
  • Goblins are only completely evil.

Just a few of the things that are different from the literature before Tolkien.
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Tolkienesque Worlds or Non-Tolkienesque Worlds?

Middle Earth is in some ways a stereotypical fantasy setting, but its more of their forerunner than their template. If you asked me to pick out a "Template" for stereotypical fantasy settings, I would look at D&D settings, Warhammer, Warcraft, and Magic the Gathering. These are more mature versions, backed up by an abundance of art, multiple creators, and marketing machines rarely accessible for a book.

I have a preference for non-stereotypical settings, but I have no objection to using the tools given me. Sometimes the setting calls for elves. I just prefer my settings to be distinctive, and my default is humans, not human-elf-dwarf-goblin(-undead)
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: Tolkienesque Worlds or Non-Tolkienesque Worlds?

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Middle Earth is in some ways a stereotypical fantasy setting, but its more of their forerunner than their template. If you asked me to pick out a "Template" for stereotypical fantasy settings, I would look at D&D settings, Warhammer, Warcraft, and Magic the Gathering. These are more mature versions, backed up by an abundance of art, multiple creators, and marketing machines rarely accessible for a book.

I have a preference for non-stereotypical settings, but I have no objection to using the tools given me. Sometimes the setting calls for elves. I just prefer my settings to be distinctive, and my default is humans, not human-elf-dwarf-goblin(-undead)
It's better to say stereotypical fantasy is a skeletal copy of Middle-Earth. At the time Lotr was published fantasy was unfashionable (Anderson said that one thing he thanked Tolkien for was a chance to publish Broken Sword as the first attempt had failed because of uninterested publishers).
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:16 PM   #16
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Default Re: Tolkienesque Worlds or Non-Tolkienesque Worlds?

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Unless I was doing what was a conscious fanfic I think I would prefer something original. The reason to me is that a large part of the interest of speculative work is the worldbuilding.

Also I am not sure anyone can make a real Tolkien knock-off..
There are certain aspects of Tolkien that nobody wants to copy. But the default elf/dwarf/halfling/orc thing is from Tolkien.
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Tolkienesque Worlds or Non-Tolkienesque Worlds?

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It's better to say stereotypical fantasy is a skeletal copy of Middle-Earth. At the time Lotr was published fantasy was unfashionable (Anderson said that one thing he thanked Tolkien for was a chance to publish Broken Sword as the first attempt had failed because of uninterested publishers).
I think that's sound.

I would distinguish several cases:

* There is fantasy set in Middle-Earth, or in an alternate history version of Middle-Earth, such as my "What if Sauron won the War of the Ring?"

* There is what I would call "Tolkien knock-offs." These are stories, films, or games that preserve the furniture of Middle-Earth—multiple humanoid races, magic rings and swords, largely empty landscapes with scattered monsters or ancient ruins—but use them to tell pure action/adventure stories without, for example, Tolkien's themes of the temptations of power, or mortality, memory, and grief; they're just about killing the monster and carrying off the treasure. Most "fantasy" RPGs seem to have some of this, though I've seen one—it might have been Burning Empires—that seemed to want to explore Tolkien's actual themes.

* There is fantasy that engages in dialogue with Tolkien (the way that Corcoran's Aristillus novels engage in dialogue with The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress). Carey's Banewreaker novels, for example, seem to be a retelling of the Silmarillion from a different moral perspective; my own current campaign, Tapestry, is about a world with multiple sapient humanoid races with different habitats (including a race of small river-dwellers who are the "shirefolk" of the setting) which is about diversity, trade, and unequal exchange and forgoes the good/evil races thing (I should note that Carey's own setting left me slightly dissatisfied in a way that contributed to Tapestry as a setting). I think that "large scale world building focused on a theme" is very much what Tolkien was about, more broadly than his particular theme and world.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:38 PM   #18
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Default Re: Tolkienesque Worlds or Non-Tolkienesque Worlds?

In my two perpetually WIP fantasy worlds, one has gone back and forth between human only and a couple of sapient non-humans (felinoid and reptilian, most consistently, sometimes also fae). The other has been consistently human only.

As to culture/technology, the first has most frequently been envisioned as akin to 16th century Europe, but occasionally early Republican Rome. Much more urban than Tolkien. The second is wedged somewhere between diesel punk and ocean punk.

I've also put some thought into Bronze Age China, but nothing has come of it.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: Tolkienesque Worlds or Non-Tolkienesque Worlds?

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Most "fantasy" RPGs seem to have some of this, though I've seen one—it might have been Burning Empires—that seemed to want to explore Tolkien's actual themes.
Burning Wheel, perhaps? The way it presents Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs seems very Tolkienesque and character focused in a way that would bring those themes into play.

As to the question, I'll go either way depending on what I want to do. I've just started to dig into Glorantha, so that's kind of what's tickling my interest, but I've also always wanted to a Tolkienesque riff based on real history, though I'm not sure when in real history. Taking his themes and rough setup and finding something in Chinese history where they could work seems interesting.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:17 PM   #20
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Default Re: Tolkienesque Worlds or Non-Tolkienesque Worlds?

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Burning Wheel, perhaps? The way it presents Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs seems very Tolkienesque and character focused in a way that would bring those themes into play.
That's the one! I didn't think the character creation rules worked acceptably, but the conceptual model was impressive.

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