In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

[BillionSix]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

http://www.io.com/~arcangel/Art/Photos/beth1.JPEG

If that fulfills a Need... };>

Is that actually you, Beth? Because if so, you are a lot prettier than I imagined.

[Azel]

Originally Posted by JCD

So shooting or swordplay would still be a straight 'lethat AND non-lethal damage'?

In short, yes. I'd leave the weapon readout for those as is, personally. But for completion sake you can say there's an unspoken (-0) non-lethal modifier next to it.

However, IN leaves so much to GM construction, weapons can be organized in any way desired. For example, if my player wanted to wield a Short Sword in non-standard ways, I'll try to accommodate. Perhaps they want to non-lethally subdue via the flat of the blade. Or maybe do a pommel crack to knock a weakened or prone enemy unconscious, just like they do in the movies. Non-lethal frees up GMs creativity in that area.

Short Sword, Pwr +2 (-0), Acc --.
Short Sword, Flat of the Blade strike, Pwr +1 (-2), Acc -1. Like a Club, but less lethal.
Short Sword, Pommel Crack, Pwr +1 (-3), Acc -2. *Special, GM may allow cinematic auto-unconscious (enough non-lethal damage to reach 0) on prone targets w/ 8 HP or less.

And about calculating angles and trajectories, just do like most Traveller & Warhammer 40k players. Get terrain, table, tape measure, and character tokens. Tape measures make everything easier. Value In Nomine standard yard distances into tape measure inches/centimeters. Then just use straightened tape measure to determine line of sight, angle, trajectory, etc. Very easy, no messy math at all. Even works w/ altitude, besides standard latitude & longitude, so even flying combat around skyscrapers is a breeze.

(PS: And whoever is in that photo invoking images from Julie Bell is quite lovely.)

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Azel

So... why not take certain Power modifiers (usually the negative ones for brawling) and just turn them into non-lethal damage modifiers. All the previous calculation of damage counts toward unconsciousness, so let's make non-lethal modifiers account for how much real Body HP loss is taken. Just do a running two-part tally, and it'll sort out fast. Throw in a faster non-lethal HP rate of recovery time, and work in its function w/ regards to a Str roll to wake up and things should be *much* easier.

This is a very interesting idea, but I could never use it. For me, the issue with combat isn't that there's too much addition and subtraction, but that too much time is spent trying to keep track of different numbers. It only takes a moment to subtract one number from another; the tricky part is when everyone's chiming in to throw in different modifiers. Here's a paraphrased excerpt from the fight I ran this past Saturday:

"All right, you roll a check digit of 6, and the target rolls a check digit of 2 on dodging, so that's 4 damage.
"Oh, but there's a -3 modifier to punch damage."
"Also, but he has superhuman strength (because it's above 9), so he gets a +2 bonus."
"Also, don't forget that he has to add 2 because Corporeal Forces are added to rolls for close-range attacks."
"But isn't that just added to the target number, not the damage number?"
"Yes, but 4 Corporeal Forces puts his target number at 14, so the excess 2 is added directly to his check digit."

Were you keeping a running tally in your head as you read that? I certainly lost track of what the heck we were talking about by the end of that snippet of conversation. There's no way I could keep track of an additional separate running tally of damage for each character, let alone healing rates that take effect during a fight.

What I like about your idea, though, is the implication that the mechanics could be finessed to end more fights with knockouts or incapacitation rather than death. I think it would be nice if, along the way, we could make vessel level more crucial to character durability, and tighten the range of hits that it takes to bring down a character.

In my own fight scene, we had two people brought down in just a couple attacks because they had so few Body Hits that nearly every hit stunned them. I kindly left them stunned on the floor and sent the bad guys after the guy who had 50+ Body Hits and was actually posing a threat in hand-to-hand, as I didn't want to deal with two PCs in Trauma with a good portion of the game to go. I had to bring in an NPC with a powerful gun to help clear out the next room, as my PCs were doing all right against the 36-hit demons, but it was taking a while. I think I'd rather see it practically impossible to get Body Hits above 30, and/or see weapons deal a whole lot more damage. Mind you, this is all AFTER I had already house ruled that there was no Dodge skill; it's just an unmodified roll vs. Agility to dodge, as I wanted to increase the likelihood that beefy enemies would get hit so they wouldn't take forever to kill.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Azel

And about calculating angles and trajectories, just do like most Traveller & Warhammer 40k players. Get terrain, table, tape measure, and character tokens.

I think it would be cool if this hypothetical In Nomine 2e (or even a current-edition In Nomine combat supplement, "Liber Kickbuttium") included optional rules to enhance the experience using tokens and maps. One thing I really like about In Nomine, though, is that it does not actually require this stuff as of now.

An idea occurred to me as another way to end fights non-lethally: Currently, a "stunning" blow is ≤ 25% of total Body Hits. What if an "incapacitating" blow were ≤ 50% of remaining Body Hits? This way a character could basically be "left for dead" before they even reach 0 Hits, but wouldn't necessarily be dead. It might take a whole round's action to check whether a character is all-the-way dead (or to offer another blow to the head just to be sure), so many wouldn't bother in a big raging melee, I'd think. This kind of makes "losing half your remaining hits" the "new zero," though, so I'd recommend changing below 0 hits to "Dying," not just unconscious. Depending on the kind of wounds sustained, this could involve actively losing some Hits per turn based on internal or external bleeding.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by JCD

And now my IN experience is complete. All you need is a set of wings. ;)

All, you say? http://www.io.com/~arcangel/Art/Photos/Wings.html
http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/AB.html

Originally Posted by BillionSix

Is that actually you, Beth? Because if so, you are a lot prettier than I imagined.

Well, it's me from a Gencon probably 15 years ago or so... *grin*

This one is only a year old. It's a pretty baggy shirt, though. (But warm! Mmm, warmth in January...)

I wonder if the chainmail still fits...

[Azel]

Jason, sounds like you need a GM screen/cheat sheet! :) All that conversation should not be happening, unless your character was doing improvisation (which sounds like they were not). The vast majority of RPGs are modifier and hit table heavy -- IN is one of the lightest ones I've ever seen. You should have gear do that work for you, or ignore most dice rolling entirely.

You should do a combat template -- or better yet, make your PCs draw up their own combat template. Then they just supply their index card template, with empty boxes where their dice go. This way all characters have to do is drop their template, put their rolled dice in the right spots, and push their template towards their target to compare attacks & defenses, a la Magic: the Gathering creature cards.

Template Labels should include the Attack TN equation, Attack CD box + Damage mods, Dodge CD box + Protection mods. Have it written in nice large fonts. Make your players right up a template on an index card for each of their most used combat strikes. With things written down out in the open there's less to keep track of in your head. (It's also great for keeping secrets, too. Players can roll and then just hand the index card & dice roll to GM to discreetly calculate. Prevents PCs metagaming OOC information.)

GMs usually run games w/ a nearby notebook full of blank paper and pencils. Make those tools go to work for you! That's why you brought them out. :)

(Oh, and I think the Incapacitating blow is a great idea. However, just like my Pommel Crack, I'd leave it almost entirely as a GM device. Far too latent for abuse, as you can already imagine. People can excuse cinematic tropes faster than any sort of "loopholes in the rules.")

[Azel]

Not being fair that I talk w/o putting up proof what I do, let me show you my IN quick reference cheat sheet. These are for basic interactions. NOTE, house rules are present! All fits on a standard 8 1/2 x 11 page:

IN NOMINE: Quick Reference

Difficulty: GM modifier, range from -2 (Very Tough) ~ +2 (Very Easy) addition to Target Number (TN).

Risk: Player modifier, requires GM discretion & detailed description. Either higher risk: -1 to TN and +1 to Check Digit (CD), or lower risk: +1 to TN and -1 to CD.

Luck: Player modifier, Essence may be spent individually by non-mundane beings to increase TN. Mundane beings may also spend essence, but it is spent all at once.

Songs, Levels: Player requirements and control granted by song levels.
1 - Verbal (V) & Semantic (S) required, song triggers next round.
2 - V or S required, song triggers next round. V & S, triggers this round.
3-4 - Thought, song triggers next round. V or S required, triggers this round.
5-6 - Thought, song triggers this round (or instantly).

Song, Extra Time: Player modifiers to increase song TN.
Two rounds +1. One minute (12 rounds) +2. Five minutes +3. One hour +4.

Basic Combat Actions:
Supernatural Attack - depends on song, resonance, attunement, etc. Goes at step 1.
Skill based Movement - depends on the skill based movement. Goes at step 2.
Regular Attack/Action - depends on weapon, combat skill, action skill etc.
Aim - Store +1 TN to attack next round. Melee max is +1 TN, Ranged is +3 TN.
Full Dodge - Dodge skill rolled vs. each dodge-able attack, +2 TN.
(Passive dodging is rolled against the 1st attack, and -2 cumulative TN penalty for each additional attack after the first.)

Basic Combat Movement:
Move = 2 legs, Agility x 6 yards per round; 4 legs or wings, Agi x 10 yds per round.

Combat Sequence:
1. Supernatural Actions, highest Perception goes first. Supernatural attacks count as that round's action. Supernatural powers that aid actions later in round resolve now. Victims of Ethereal or Celestial attacks roll Will resists now; resisting is not an action.
2. Movement, highest Agility goes first. Movement is not an action unless it uses a skill. However, movement in Celestial form is an action.
3. Basic actions: combat, aim, full dodge, etc. Highest Agility goes first.
4. Damage Reduction & Resistance: dodge (or resist,) and protection resolved.
5. Damage Resolved: Stunning occurs when 25% of HP is lost in one single attack.

Disturbance: Dist*10yd*Cel Force = Base Range. Dist.+Per= Base Roll. Dist. Mods: Essence, +1 per essence. Songs, +Degree of Disturbance. Enter/Leave Corporeal Plane, + # of Forces enter/leave. Superior Appearance, +25 and up. Destruction, +1 per Corporeal Force (or 4 hits of physical damage). Kill a Human, +10 per human.

[BillionSix]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

All, you say? http://www.io.com/~arcangel/Art/Photos/Wings.html
http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/AB.html

Well, it's me from a Gencon probably 15 years ago or so... *grin*

This one is only a year old. It's a pretty baggy shirt, though. (But warm! Mmm, warmth in January...)

I wonder if the chainmail still fits...

Yeah, you still got it. :)

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

http://www.io.com/~arcangel/Art/Photos/beth1.JPEG

If that fulfills a Need... };>

Darned tricky Lilim...

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Azel

Jason, sounds like you need a GM screen/cheat sheet! :) All that conversation should not be happening, unless your character was doing improvisation (which sounds like they were not).

Yeah, I have a cheat sheet I made myself, but I still find this stuff hard to keep track of. And my players have no interest in doing this kind of thing themselves; a couple of them actually like prepping characters beforehand, but the rest just kind of rush through everything when we gather in person, during the time I scheduled us to play... Thanks for sharing your sheet all the same, though!