In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned? - Page 8

Azel · 01-06-2011, 05:02 AM

Guns cause more disturbance because the bullet has to go somewhere. And unless you have a strong role to use a gun -- and a good excuse to use that gun under the cover of your role -- you make *big bada boom* instead. With increased gun damage rules (each bullet of a burst giving a range of damage) the spill over should be converted straight into disturbance. In example: 3-round burst, at 6 pts damage each, roll 3d6 to see what damage sticks on target celestial, the rest of the damage is spilled over into disturbance at 4 pts a pop. Easy. And Loud.

Edit: Still have to promote the Alternate Body Hit rules from Game Master's Guide. Really does make humans less one-hit wonders and tones down celestial slug match marathons. However, I'm kinda OK in my games w/ humans being on average 8 HP and less. Squishy children and grandmas makes celestial caution important. And so many celestial abilities rock caution, subtlety, and subterfuge hard; primo opportunity to up-sell their value to PCs. "Humans are squishy; squash too many and you deal with Heaven... or the Game. Try saving the fireworks for something really important, hmm?"

I will say that I empathize with swords leading to trench coats worries. It's a very real concern. Next they'll want sunglasses, slow-mo effects, and an action movie rock soundtrack. Depressingly common issue. I will say bowie/combat knives make more sense -- and I'd make characters take either Scabbard or summonable swords if they are going to carry swords in my game. Either that or be SCA members and wrap their gear in oodles of aluminum foil.

However, a lot of these issues revolve around combat, and I just don't see IN as a high combat game. It's engine just doesn't support it. Not only the combat mechanics, but the world's political mechanics stifle real dungeon crawler stuff. High realism detail and character power balancing is for other systems, like D&D, in my honest opinion.

JCD · 01-06-2011, 01:10 PM

Re: Bullets. Well, combat light games don't do well. D & D seems to have returned to it's roots as a combat (albeit a sophisticated) combat simulation with enough of a side of role playing to justify hawt drow wimmins.

But that has less about bullets and more about a meta reason why it's a bit difficult to attract IN players from the massive pool of gamers.

Yes, I can see that.

***

Re: Humans not being balanced with Celestials

I think it's a standard dichotomy. PLAYERS want their characters not to suck, but GMs want mooks to be available for the Celestials to stomp all over. All within a consistant rules system.

You can do what Feng Shui and GURPS Black Ops did and have inconsistant rules.

But I agree. Humans aren't Celestials. But that doesn't mean they should suck either.

Azel · 01-06-2011, 09:33 PM

Well, if you account for disturbance then guns really are a great equalizer for humans. Human snipers and general mooks for sub-machine gun spray 'n prays should be in high demand.

In fact, I'd create penetration rules for high powered rifles and the like. Make Protection more important, too. Fire a sniper rifle round into a target and be aware that it's likely strong enough to: go through the passenger car door, go through your target's vessel, exit the driver side door, go through the garbage can nearby, and finally embed itself into the shop's brick wall.

Dunno a balanced rule now, but I'd make it up like this:

Penetration. High powered weapons do damage to more than one target in line of fire. Not all damage can be applied to initial target, some of it carries through. Penetration equals the number of targets the bullet usually goes through. Take the Damage roll (CD + Power) and apply it for each target, subtracting one cumulative damage for each subsequent target. Protection also cumulatively subtracts its value against subsequent targets.

i.e. Sniper Rifle, Power +8, Penetration 4. CD roll of 4. Damage rolls of a) 12 b) 11 c) 10 d) 9. B is human in a car, A & C are car doors w/ a protection of 2. Factoring Protection, damage values are: a) 10 b) 9 c) 6 d) 5.

Sorta simple. Nightmarish disturbance (it's all cumulative, baby!). Reestablishes guns as the great equalizer. It could work... I'll test it out in my games.

Edit: Forgot about metagame reasons why IN takes more time to attract players. I do agree, lack of chain mail bikinis, Matrix-esque trench coat wearing vampires wielding katanas, and mechs worrying about heat sink allocation do restrain its appeal to number crunchers. IN is a game that appeals more to the Storyteller or Method Actor gamer than the Munchkin or Weekend Warrior gamer.

JCD · 01-06-2011, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azel

Well, if you account for disturbance then guns really are a great equalizer for humans. Human snipers and general mooks for sub-machine gun spray 'n prays should be in high demand.

In fact, I'd create penetration rules for high powered rifles and the like. Make Protection more important, too. Fire a sniper rifle round into a target and be aware that it's likely strong enough to: go through the passenger car door, go through your target's vessel, exit the driver side door, go through the garbage can nearby, and finally embed itself into the shop's brick wall.

Dunno a balanced rule now, but I'd make it up like this:

Penetration. High powered weapons do damage to more than one target in line of fire. Not all damage can be applied to initial target, some of it carries through. Penetration equals the number of targets the bullet usually goes through. Take the Damage roll (CD + Power) and apply it for each target, subtracting one cumulative damage for each subsequent target. Protection also cumulatively subtracts its value against subsequent targets.

i.e. Sniper Rifle, Power +8, Penetration 4. CD roll of 4. Damage rolls of a) 12 b) 11 c) 10 d) 9. B is human in a car, A & C are car doors w/ a protection of 2. Factoring Protection, damage values are: a) 10 b) 9 c) 6 d) 5.

Sorta simple. Nightmarish disturbance (it's all cumulative, baby!). Reestablishes guns as the great equalizer. It could work... I'll test it out in my games.

Edit: Forgot about metagame reasons why IN takes more time to attract players. I do agree, lack of chain mail bikinis, Matrix-esque trench coat wearing vampires wielding katanas, and mechs worrying about heat sink allocation do restrain its appeal to number crunchers. IN is a game that appeals more to the Storyteller or Method Actor gamer than the Munchkin or Weekend Warrior gamer.

Blink blink. Is there a way to work it out that won't require two spread sheets, a laptop, and an incredibly detailed map to work out the angles and trajectories?

How about this? A gunshot with a power of +3 or more does (Power x CD)/4 disturbance in damage. So a .44 does around on average 3 disturbance for every shot which can actually hit other stuff. A M-16 at max spray would do (8 x 6)/4 = 12 disturbance in property damage. Yikes!

And I for one mourn the lack of chain mail bikinis in IN. Though the Lilim sort of make up for it.

Jason · 01-06-2011, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

Blink blink. Is there a way to work it out that won't require two spread sheets, a laptop, and an incredibly detailed map to work out the angles and trajectories?

How about this? A gunshot with a power of +3 or more does (Power x CD)/4 disturbance in damage. So a .44 does around on average 3 disturbance for every shot which can actually hit other stuff. A M-16 at max spray would do (8 x 6)/4 = 12 disturbance in property damage. Yikes!

I'm considering house ruling right now that guns do a flat +CD disturbance just for the sake of convenience. Not only are you getting penetration and ricochets, but the act of firing one is exploding gun powder and absolutely ruining the spent casing. ;)

JCD · 01-07-2011, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

I'm considering house ruling right now that guns do a flat +CD disturbance just for the sake of convenience. Not only are you getting penetration and ricochets, but the act of firing one is exploding gun powder and absolutely ruining the spent casing. ;)

Yes, but is a casing 4 body? I like your ruling though. Simple. Do you add the power to that?

Jason · 01-07-2011, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

Yes, but is a casing 4 body? I like your ruling though. Simple. Do you add the power to that?

Nah, the casing itself is weak, and I wouldn't suggest any more mental arithmetic than just looking at the die. I'm just looking for a shorthand way of impressing upon my players that guns are noisier in every sense, without actually slowing down our combat encounters.

Archangel Beth · 01-09-2011, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

And I for one mourn the lack of chain mail bikinis in IN. Though the Lilim sort of make up for it.

http://www.io.com/~arcangel/Art/Photos/beth1.JPEG

If that fulfills a Need... };>

Azel · 01-09-2011, 03:55 PM

Didn't want to thread kill, so let me try topic CPR.

I was remembering that not only is celestial brawling unsatisfying due to its marathon nature, but unconsciousness rules are also lacking. Then it hit me; people are not so much hot on lowering HP as much as they are interested in non-lethal damage. Reducing Body HP to zero is just unconsciousness, it's Vessel lvl times Str that causes death.

So... why not take certain Power modifiers (usually the negative ones for brawling) and just turn them into non-lethal damage modifiers. All the previous calculation of damage counts toward unconsciousness, so let's make non-lethal modifiers account for how much real Body HP loss is taken. Just do a running two-part tally, and it'll sort out fast. Throw in a faster non-lethal HP rate of recovery time, and work in its function w/ regards to a Str roll to wake up and things should be *much* easier. Let's do away w/ sluggathons!

i.e. Human brawler has Fighting/4 skill and heavy gloves. Trying to knock out big guy target (Corp For 3) w/ HP of 18. Round 1: CD 4 -- Damage equals 4 CD +1 adv Fight skill +1 heavy gloves = 6. Instead of tacking on -3 because its a punch, tack that on later to reveal lethal HP damage. So damage towards unconsciousness is 6, lethal Body Hits is 3. Write it like so:

Round 0, Target's HP 18.
Round 1, CD 4: Target's HP 12 (15).
(---Then just do a running tally---)
Round 2, CD 2: Target's HP 8 (14).
Round 3, CD 5: Target's HP 1 (10).
Round 4, CD 1: Target's HP -2 (10).
Target is now unconscious. Combination of Non-lethal & Lethal takes Target down to -2. Lethal damage takes Target down to just 10.

So Punch equals Pwr +0 (-3), where +0 is total damage towards unconsciousness and -3 is how much non-lethal to subtract out.

Thus you can make new attacks such as -- Sleeper Choke Hold!, Pwr +4 (-8), Acc *Special, continues damage from Hold, resists w/ contested Str roll. Bonuses only from Fighting skill & Str.

And how do you recover from non-lethal, you ask? Easy. Non-lethal heals 1 HP per minute -- also known as 12 rounds. But the target only gets a chance to wake up when either a) all non-lethal is healed and target has at least half their regular HP or b) recovers to at least 0 HP from both non-lethal and lethal damage and succeeds a Str roll, receiving a modifying point for every 5 HP points over zero (re-attempts from failed rolls allowed after another 5 pts healed).

Healing works on real damage, (and, yes, heals over 5 pts re-triggers a Str roll to awaken).

There's no real math involved here, so it should be quite easy to grok. But hey, these little math-like things is what is involved in fleshing out the combat system. Either we want these changes for 2nd Ed, or we really should be happily sticking to our cinematic system. High-combat is very much not for everybody.

(Hope this makes people's unarmed combat easier to endure!)

JCD · 01-09-2011, 04:57 PM

So shooting or swordplay would still be a straight 'lethat AND non-lethal damage'?

***

Quote:

http://www.io.com/~arcangel/Art/Photos/beth1.JPEG

If that fulfills a Need... };>

And now my IN experience is complete. All you need is a set of wings. ;)

01-06-2011, 05:02 AM	#71
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned? Guns cause more disturbance because the bullet has to go somewhere. And unless you have a strong role to use a gun -- and a good excuse to use that gun under the cover of your role -- you make big bada boom instead. With increased gun damage rules (each bullet of a burst giving a range of damage) the spill over should be converted straight into disturbance. In example: 3-round burst, at 6 pts damage each, roll 3d6 to see what damage sticks on target celestial, the rest of the damage is spilled over into disturbance at 4 pts a pop. Easy. And Loud. Edit: Still have to promote the Alternate Body Hit rules from Game Master's Guide. Really does make humans less one-hit wonders and tones down celestial slug match marathons. However, I'm kinda OK in my games w/ humans being on average 8 HP and less. Squishy children and grandmas makes celestial caution important. And so many celestial abilities rock caution, subtlety, and subterfuge hard; primo opportunity to up-sell their value to PCs. "Humans are squishy; squash too many and you deal with Heaven... or the Game. Try saving the fireworks for something really important, hmm?" I will say that I empathize with swords leading to trench coats worries. It's a very real concern. Next they'll want sunglasses, slow-mo effects, and an action movie rock soundtrack. Depressingly common issue. I will say bowie/combat knives make more sense -- and I'd make characters take either Scabbard or summonable swords if they are going to carry swords in my game. Either that or be SCA members and wrap their gear in oodles of aluminum foil. However, a lot of these issues revolve around combat, and I just don't see IN as a high combat game. It's engine just doesn't support it. Not only the combat mechanics, but the world's political mechanics stifle real dungeon crawler stuff. High realism detail and character power balancing is for other systems, like D&D, in my honest opinion. Last edited by Azel; 01-06-2011 at 05:24 AM.

01-06-2011, 01:10 PM	#72
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned? Re: Bullets. Well, combat light games don't do well. D & D seems to have returned to it's roots as a combat (albeit a sophisticated) combat simulation with enough of a side of role playing to justify hawt drow wimmins. But that has less about bullets and more about a meta reason why it's a bit difficult to attract IN players from the massive pool of gamers. Yes, I can see that. *** Re: Humans not being balanced with Celestials I think it's a standard dichotomy. PLAYERS want their characters not to suck, but GMs want mooks to be available for the Celestials to stomp all over. All within a consistant rules system. You can do what Feng Shui and GURPS Black Ops did and have inconsistant rules. But I agree. Humans aren't Celestials. But that doesn't mean they should suck either.

01-06-2011, 09:33 PM	#73
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned? Well, if you account for disturbance then guns really are a great equalizer for humans. Human snipers and general mooks for sub-machine gun spray 'n prays should be in high demand. In fact, I'd create penetration rules for high powered rifles and the like. Make Protection more important, too. Fire a sniper rifle round into a target and be aware that it's likely strong enough to: go through the passenger car door, go through your target's vessel, exit the driver side door, go through the garbage can nearby, and finally embed itself into the shop's brick wall. Dunno a balanced rule now, but I'd make it up like this: Penetration. High powered weapons do damage to more than one target in line of fire. Not all damage can be applied to initial target, some of it carries through. Penetration equals the number of targets the bullet usually goes through. Take the Damage roll (CD + Power) and apply it for each target, subtracting one cumulative damage for each subsequent target. Protection also cumulatively subtracts its value against subsequent targets. i.e. Sniper Rifle, Power +8, Penetration 4. CD roll of 4. Damage rolls of a) 12 b) 11 c) 10 d) 9. B is human in a car, A & C are car doors w/ a protection of 2. Factoring Protection, damage values are: a) 10 b) 9 c) 6 d) 5. Sorta simple. Nightmarish disturbance (it's all cumulative, baby!). Reestablishes guns as the great equalizer. It could work... I'll test it out in my games. Edit: Forgot about metagame reasons why IN takes more time to attract players. I do agree, lack of chain mail bikinis, Matrix-esque trench coat wearing vampires wielding katanas, and mechs worrying about heat sink allocation do restrain its appeal to number crunchers. IN is a game that appeals more to the Storyteller or Method Actor gamer than the Munchkin or Weekend Warrior gamer. Last edited by Azel; 01-06-2011 at 09:37 PM.

01-09-2011, 03:55 PM	#79
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned? Didn't want to thread kill, so let me try topic CPR. I was remembering that not only is celestial brawling unsatisfying due to its marathon nature, but unconsciousness rules are also lacking. Then it hit me; people are not so much hot on lowering HP as much as they are interested in non-lethal damage. Reducing Body HP to zero is just unconsciousness, it's Vessel lvl times Str that causes death. So... why not take certain Power modifiers (usually the negative ones for brawling) and just turn them into non-lethal damage modifiers. All the previous calculation of damage counts toward unconsciousness, so let's make non-lethal modifiers account for how much real Body HP loss is taken. Just do a running two-part tally, and it'll sort out fast. Throw in a faster non-lethal HP rate of recovery time, and work in its function w/ regards to a Str roll to wake up and things should be much easier. Let's do away w/ sluggathons! i.e. Human brawler has Fighting/4 skill and heavy gloves. Trying to knock out big guy target (Corp For 3) w/ HP of 18. Round 1: CD 4 -- Damage equals 4 CD +1 adv Fight skill +1 heavy gloves = 6. Instead of tacking on -3 because its a punch, tack that on later to reveal lethal HP damage. So damage towards unconsciousness is 6, lethal Body Hits is 3. Write it like so: Round 0, Target's HP 18. Round 1, CD 4: Target's HP 12 (15). (---Then just do a running tally---) Round 2, CD 2: Target's HP 8 (14). Round 3, CD 5: Target's HP 1 (10). Round 4, CD 1: Target's HP -2 (10). Target is now unconscious. Combination of Non-lethal & Lethal takes Target down to -2. Lethal damage takes Target down to just 10. So Punch equals Pwr +0 (-3), where +0 is total damage towards unconsciousness and -3 is how much non-lethal to subtract out. Thus you can make new attacks such as -- Sleeper Choke Hold!, Pwr +4 (-8), Acc *Special, continues damage from Hold, resists w/ contested Str roll. Bonuses only from Fighting skill & Str. And how do you recover from non-lethal, you ask? Easy. Non-lethal heals 1 HP per minute -- also known as 12 rounds. But the target only gets a chance to wake up when either a) all non-lethal is healed and target has at least half their regular HP or b) recovers to at least 0 HP from both non-lethal and lethal damage and succeeds a Str roll, receiving a modifying point for every 5 HP points over zero (re-attempts from failed rolls allowed after another 5 pts healed). Healing works on real damage, (and, yes, heals over 5 pts re-triggers a Str roll to awaken). There's no real math involved here, so it should be quite easy to grok. But hey, these little math-like things is what is involved in fleshing out the combat system. Either we want these changes for 2nd Ed, or we really should be happily sticking to our cinematic system. High-combat is very much not for everybody. (Hope this makes people's unarmed combat easier to endure!)