The '40 point limit'

larsdangly · 09-20-2018, 09:12 AM

There was a suggestion floating around over the last weeks, originating I think from SJ, that normal humanoids would be subject to a 40 point stat limit in the new edition. This seems to be consistent with the advancement rules in Melee and Wizard, and with almost all of the stat blocks in Death Test 1 and 2 (with the possible exception of entry 177 in DT2, where there is a significant chance of randomly generating an orc that breaks this limit). But, Tollenkar's Lair violates this limit for quite a few NPCs.

I mentioned this in another thread, but think its important enough to rise to the level of attention of its own thread. Whatever the reasons might be, are the high stat totals of several NPCs going to be retained in the final version of TL that gets shipped next year? If so, does it mean the 40 point limit isn't really part of the core rules? Or that you will recommend PC's are subject to that limit but NPC's are not? The outcome of this will significantly impact how people play so I think it deserves an explanation.

larsdangly · 09-25-2018, 06:01 PM

This has been made clear (I think...) with the release of the new ITL rulebook: Stat advancement above 40 points is possible, just expensive. So, there is now a rationalization for the high stat totals for Tollenkar, Tarve and other experienced NPCs in Tollenkar's Lair. It is still worth noting that the experience costs of going up to 48 points are astronomical (about 3.2 million exp total, or about 30,000 sessions of play, meaning a century of doing something adventurous every single day). I would say that makes these NPC's possible but wildly implausible, so perhaps we're supposed to imagine they benefited from wishes or something. I think I'm still going to 'Nerf' them down to a more plausible 40-42 point maximum.

Steve Jackson · 09-29-2018, 11:59 AM

I nerfed some of them a bit already. But I have no problem with introducing some elite foes that are individually tougher than the PCs.

larsdangly · 09-29-2018, 12:17 PM

That's a design decision, so isn't something that could be 'wrong', but my thinking on the issue is influenced by the fact that I don't see a way anyone can become Tarve or Tollenkar (unless, perhaps, they are hundreds of years old?). I can just declare that they exist, but then I'm doing something that sits outside the way the game works for everyone else. Of course a magical (and artifact filled!) game world contains many mysterious powers, but is that what Tollenkar and his assistants are? I personally would not make these sorts of NPCs special in this way, so I'm going to prepare my own 'de-scoped' versions of them, with stats that can be reached by humans through some combination of experience and wishes.

Tenex · 09-29-2018, 01:15 PM

Elite foes is one thing, human(oid) foes that are better than any PC could ever hope to be are awkward at best. If someone wants a relatively overpowered foe, then make it a demon, dragon, etc. IMO, no NPC human should be better than a PC could hope to get over several years of real world time.

09-20-2018, 09:12 AM	#1
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	The '40 point limit' There was a suggestion floating around over the last weeks, originating I think from SJ, that normal humanoids would be subject to a 40 point stat limit in the new edition. This seems to be consistent with the advancement rules in Melee and Wizard, and with almost all of the stat blocks in Death Test 1 and 2 (with the possible exception of entry 177 in DT2, where there is a significant chance of randomly generating an orc that breaks this limit). But, Tollenkar's Lair violates this limit for quite a few NPCs. I mentioned this in another thread, but think its important enough to rise to the level of attention of its own thread. Whatever the reasons might be, are the high stat totals of several NPCs going to be retained in the final version of TL that gets shipped next year? If so, does it mean the 40 point limit isn't really part of the core rules? Or that you will recommend PC's are subject to that limit but NPC's are not? The outcome of this will significantly impact how people play so I think it deserves an explanation.

09-25-2018, 06:01 PM	#2
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: The '40 point limit' This has been made clear (I think...) with the release of the new ITL rulebook: Stat advancement above 40 points is possible, just expensive. So, there is now a rationalization for the high stat totals for Tollenkar, Tarve and other experienced NPCs in Tollenkar's Lair. It is still worth noting that the experience costs of going up to 48 points are astronomical (about 3.2 million exp total, or about 30,000 sessions of play, meaning a century of doing something adventurous every single day). I would say that makes these NPC's possible but wildly implausible, so perhaps we're supposed to imagine they benefited from wishes or something. I think I'm still going to 'Nerf' them down to a more plausible 40-42 point maximum.

09-29-2018, 11:59 AM	#3
Steve Jackson President and EIC Join Date: Jul 2004	Re: The '40 point limit' I nerfed some of them a bit already. But I have no problem with introducing some elite foes that are individually tougher than the PCs.

09-29-2018, 12:17 PM	#4
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: The '40 point limit' That's a design decision, so isn't something that could be 'wrong', but my thinking on the issue is influenced by the fact that I don't see a way anyone can become Tarve or Tollenkar (unless, perhaps, they are hundreds of years old?). I can just declare that they exist, but then I'm doing something that sits outside the way the game works for everyone else. Of course a magical (and artifact filled!) game world contains many mysterious powers, but is that what Tollenkar and his assistants are? I personally would not make these sorts of NPCs special in this way, so I'm going to prepare my own 'de-scoped' versions of them, with stats that can be reached by humans through some combination of experience and wishes.

09-29-2018, 01:15 PM	#5
Tenex Join Date: Aug 2018	Re: The '40 point limit' Elite foes is one thing, human(oid) foes that are better than any PC could ever hope to be are awkward at best. If someone wants a relatively overpowered foe, then make it a demon, dragon, etc. IMO, no NPC human should be better than a PC could hope to get over several years of real world time.