Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by whswhs

All of this is a product of the actual facts about how information flows through human nervous systems, and between them. A technology that provided sufficiently high bandwidth might change that. But I don't see that THS has such a technology.

Bill Stoddard

THS is really a super-science setting, not 100% hard sci fi. Trying to force the setting into realistic constraints tends to break it, I think. Metempsychosis, reincarnation, personal immortality,etc are all part of the transhumanist future mythology that is recreated in the setting.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

THS is really a super-science setting, not 100% hard sci fi. Trying to force the setting into realistic constraints tends to break it, I think. Metempsychosis, reincarnation, personal immortality,etc are all part of the transhumanist future mythology that is recreated in the setting.

I completely disagree. THS is a hard sf setting, one that carefully disavows all of the classical "miracle" technologies: It has no FTL, no time travel, no parallel worlds, no psi powers, not even any aliens. And when it introduces current speculative tech, it makes a point of limiting its capabilities; for example, it has wet nanotech but not dry. It's also fairly specific about the exact processes by which it attains its ultra-tech results. This invites, not handwaving about "oh, we can solve that problem trivially!" but detailed examination of what can and can't be done.

I'd also note that one of the points of the setting is that transhumanism and related belief systems is an ideology, or even a religion, that aspires to change the world radically for the better. It's not a routine set of technological conveniences. There wouldn't be so many transhumanISTs if the world were fully TRANSHUMAN.

Bill Stoddard

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I completely disagree. THS is a hard sf setting, one that carefully disavows all of the classical "miracle" technologies: It has no FTL, no time travel, no parallel worlds, no psi powers, not even any aliens. And when it introduces current speculative tech, it makes a point of limiting its capabilities; for example, it has wet nanotech but not dry. It's also fairly specific about the exact processes by which it attains its ultra-tech results. This invites, not handwaving about "oh, we can solve that problem trivially!" but detailed examination of what can and can't be done.

I'd also note that one of the points of the setting is that transhumanism and related belief systems is an ideology, or even a religion, that aspires to change the world radically for the better. It's not a routine set of technological conveniences. There wouldn't be so many transhumanISTs if the world were fully TRANSHUMAN.

Bill Stoddard

I'd say that 'uploading' is a miracle technology, Bill.

[combatmedic]

BTW, that wasn't a negative criticism of the setting. Most sci fi 'breaks the rules' or assumes miracles at some point. FTL is the most common example.

H Beam Piper wrote some very good sci fi that included reincarnation.

I think the line between sci fi and fantasy is often blurry, more a matter of style than substance.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

I'd say that 'uploading' is a miracle technology, Bill.

Given the number of decades before it supposedly becomes practical, I wouldn't call either the ability to model a complete human brain in real time, or the ability to scan a human brain with the necessary level of resolution "miraculous." The only thing that strikes me as miraculous is the idea that if it were done to me, I would subsequently regain consciousness in a digital virtual body, rather than losing consciousness and never regaining it again. And that's what this thread is about.

Bill Stoddard

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Given the number of decades before it supposedly becomes practical, I wouldn't call either the ability to model a complete human brain in real time, or the ability to scan a human brain with the necessary level of resolution "miraculous." The only thing that strikes me as miraculous is the idea that if it were done to me, I would subsequently regain consciousness in a digital virtual body, rather than losing consciousness and never regaining it again. And that's what this thread is about.

Bill Stoddard

Assuming that the human psyche is a purely physical thing is a mistake, I believe. Modeling a brain is not the same thing as creating a soul.

Yes, you've correctly identified the miracle that many self-proclaimed transhumanists would like to see. Transfer of the soul from the dying human body to some other body, human or otherwise, would save them from death.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

I'd say that 'uploading' is a miracle technology, Bill.

That's because you believe in a supernatural soul. Otherwise the brain should be capable of being modeled by a sufficiently complex Turing complete process. It's a physical process, and therefore is capable of being modeled.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That's because you believe in a supernatural soul. Otherwise the brain should be capable of being modeled by a sufficiently complex Turing complete process.

It's not really 'supernatural' it's quite a part of nature. You are right, though- I don't think we are simply biological machines.
The physical part might be reproduced in a machine, but why would that reproduce the extraphysical part?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

It's not really 'supernatural' it's quite a part of nature.

What part of nature? Does it have mass? Charge? Can you measure it in anyway? Test for it's presence or absence? What physical processes produce it? Why can't these same processes be duplicated?

The physical part might be repoduced in a machine, but why would that reproduce the extraphysical part?

If it proved impossible to model a human brain successfully; if regardless of everything else being correct consciousness was still missing, then perhaps, you might be right. There is currently no way to even attempt to answer this question. However as it is; there's no reason to postulate that there is an "aphysical" part.

By the way, how can something be both natural and aphysical? If it is part of nature, shouldn't it arise from physical processes as all nature does?

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What part of nature? Does it have mass? Charge? Can you measure it in anyway? Test for it's presence or absence? What physical processes produce it? Why can't these same processes be duplicated?
If it proved impossible to model a human brain successfully; if regardless of everything else being correct consciousness was still missing, then perhaps, you might be right. There is currently no way to even attempt to answer this question. However as it is; there's no reason to postulate that there is an "aphysical" part.

By the way, how can something be both natural and aphysical? If it is part of nature, shouldn't it arise from physical processes as all nature does?

Why are you assuming that all nature arises from physical processes?
You're assuming that I will accept the rules of your world-view.
I never argued that the brain couldn't be modelled, only that there's more to the psyche than just the brain's physical functions.