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Old 11-04-2020, 03:49 AM   #21
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
They also get to make a DX check to halve damage from falling on top of the automatic Acrobatics success. That's fairly important.
Which can be achieved much cheaper with a limited Flight:

Flight, -50% Gliding [20] + Reduced Flight Move by 9 [-18], for a net [2].

Even if you object to the Disadvantage Budget of reduced flight move, gliding flight alone at [20] offers lots and lots more utility than Catfall at [10]. The move from Gliding to Catfall is not a mere 50% loss of utility, it's much more drastic.
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Old 11-04-2020, 04:13 AM   #22
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Which can be achieved much cheaper with a limited Flight:

Flight, -50% Gliding [20] + Reduced Flight Move by 9 [-18], for a net [2].

Even if you object to the Disadvantage Budget of reduced flight move, gliding flight alone at [20] offers lots and lots more utility than Catfall at [15]. The move from Gliding to Catfall is not a mere 25% loss of utility, it's much more drastic.
Facinating - Gliding does not actually specify that you can't hover, and 'Cannot Hover' specifically states that it's incompatible with Gliding.

Now, given that we're talking about falls, and not controlled jumps, the question is - how long does it take to get one's life together and start flying if you find yourself falling?
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Old 11-04-2020, 04:17 AM   #23
johndallman
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
gliding flight alone at [20] offers lots and lots more utility than Catfall at [15].
Catfall is [10], not [15]. Gliding is still better value, though.
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Old 11-04-2020, 05:04 AM   #24
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

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They also get to make a DX check to halve damage from falling on top of the automatic Acrobatics success. That's fairly important.
That's helpful to make long falls survivable, but how often does that come up? If it's uncommon, the thief wasted 10 points on it. If it's common, the other characters that didn't get it is in deep trouble. If the GM puts only the thief in a situation it would be useful then picking the advantage only served to bring trouble.
Worse, just because it's survivable it doesn't mean it's useful. A DF Thief falling 17 yards (from the example on B431) would take 4d damage without Catfall and 2d with it, if his HP was full he might not die but he's likely to be reeling (perhaps with limbs crippled) and alone (if not, his mates might be making unconscious/death rolls). The points would have been better spent on other traits like Perfect Balance (to not fall) or Serendipity (to be saved in the last moment).

And what about cinematic/supernatural beings that simply doesn't take damage from a fall? Say a vampire or lycanthrope that can jump out of a tall building to escape. It would be shameful and anticlimatic if the fall crippled their legs. I've seem some complicated Flight builds on past threads but it feels very unnecessary when there's already an advantage that's all about enduring falls...
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Old 11-04-2020, 07:22 AM   #25
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

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That's helpful to make long falls survivable, but how often does that come up? If it's uncommon, the thief wasted 10 points on it. If it's common, the other characters that didn't get it is in deep trouble. If the GM puts only the thief in a situation it would be useful then picking the advantage only served to bring trouble.
These arguments apply to almost any advantage that will save or protect someone from some kind of ill-fortune. If only one person has Danger Sense then sooner or later putting the party in situations where it's worthwhile will get the others who don't have it killed because they're surprised. The same applies to Combat Reflexes, for that matter, and the reason we don't generally worry about this is that combat is common and expected in a lot of games.

The real question is whether 10 points of Catfall is worthwhile in a game where falling is reasonably common compared to 10 points spent in other ways that can also mitigate falling damage. It can buy DX+1 in Acrobatics with 2 points spare, which might be better given acrobatics' other uses. It can buy half of a basic Gliding ability (and both are exotic, so availability should be about the same). It can buy DR5 (Tough Skin), which helps with falls (though not as much as Catfall) and with all sorts of other mishaps as well. It can go towards Luck or Serendipity, which also work on a great many other problems (but may not be available when you fall, so aren't a perfect solution).

Looking at all those other ways of spending points that also help against falls, Catfall is probably overpriced. Not because what it does isn't strong - only the Gliding is clearly as good vs falls, but because Catfall is only effective vs falls.
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Old 11-04-2020, 07:25 AM   #26
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

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Facinating - Gliding does not actually specify that you can't hover, and 'Cannot Hover' specifically states that it's incompatible with Gliding.

Now, given that we're talking about falls, and not controlled jumps, the question is - how long does it take to get one's life together and start flying if you find yourself falling?
Presumably about as long as it takes to get one's life together and start catfalling instead of anvil-falling?

I did reduce the speed from 10 to 1 instead of to zero in order to avoid awkward hovering issues. But even so, being able to fall not-quite-vertically, with a degree of manoeuvrability (e.g. in a spiral), an indefinite height with no damage is much better than being able to reduce damage partially.
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Old 11-04-2020, 09:10 AM   #27
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

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Which can be achieved much cheaper with a limited Flight:

Flight, -50% Gliding [20] + Reduced Flight Move by 9 [-18], for a net [2].

Even if you object to the Disadvantage Budget of reduced flight move, gliding flight alone at [20] offers lots and lots more utility than Catfall at [10]. The move from Gliding to Catfall is not a mere 50% loss of utility, it's much more drastic.
I think I would object to it on the grounds of reducing the price of Flight too much. I think advantage limiting Disadvantages like Reduced Flight Move should be included with Limitations in the 80% limit.
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Old 11-04-2020, 09:57 AM   #28
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

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Now, given that we're talking about falls, and not controlled jumps, the question is - how long does it take to get one's life together and start flying if you find yourself falling?
It requires a Ready action, so generally for falls of less than 5 yards you won't be able to use it -- but for falls of less than 5 yards there's Acrobatics. I would note that Flight is something of the opposite case, it's quite cheap relative to the benefits it provides.
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Old 11-04-2020, 01:12 PM   #29
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

Maybe I've been playing this wrong, but doesn't Peripheral Vision give you an active defense (i.e. Dodge) against missile weapons / gunfire unless the attack is coming from exactly behind you, because you can see the attacker and are therefore aware of the attack?

This is super helpful in a modern action game where GMs are enforcing the "defenses are forfeit unless you known about the attack" rule.
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Old 11-04-2020, 09:03 PM   #30
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Default Re: [Basic] Catfall, Very Fit and Peripheral Vision Cost

I had the same cost questions about Catfall, with intent to someday ask the forum whether anyone else considered it a bit expensive. So I appreciate your taking that off my to-do list. : )

Rather than try to break down a "proper" cost (somewhere between 10 pt and 5 pt?), I'll add a thought in support of the existing 10 pt cost:

A lot of players seem to view Catfall as passive "in case I fall" protection from harm, but I think the key is to make active use of it. Lead pursuing foes to high places, then safely jump down and run away (or start shooting at the foes) as they slowly climb their way down. And use it to jump on foes from above. Even foes that aren't surprised will take a penalty to defense (and will take more damage than you do if you're simply slamming from above).

(In addition to generic "attack from above", GURPS/DFRPG have an special pounce attack available only to creatures with 4+ legs. I'd like to see that offered to two-legged creatures as well, with some penalties as appropriate, but aided by Catfall. Or simply made available to two-legged creatures with Catfall, if not other two-leggers. Either way, I already make the assumption that animals with Catfall don't need to worry about taking damage when pouncing; that gives them extra benefit from the advantage, and saves the GM a little hassle.)

And if none of those thoughts make Catfall a better value . . . well, it's essentially protection gained through skilled acrobatic maneuvering, so I wouldn't think it strange to house rule an overall +1 to Acrobatics (and Body Sense) for Catfall. Every player loves a good Acrobatics skill!
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