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Old 10-03-2018, 10:21 AM   #101
platimus
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by The Wyzard View Post
Yeah, this is how I figured it. The character would be cut off from a lot of high-level wizardry, but still fun to play. They could get a ST Battery/Power Stone since a staff wouldn't do much for them.

And hey! You get claws that are the equivalent of a broadsword and (I think) you don't have to spend Talent points to use them. I'm not sure what they're like in HTH combat. You get basically "free" chainmail-equivalent armor. You move a little slower on the ground, but you can fly.

I think it'd be a fun character. Probably not mechanically optimal, but there's a lot of RP potential there.
Absolutely! A formidable foe, powerful ally, and a lot of fun in parties! :)
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Old 10-03-2018, 03:52 PM   #102
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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This is only true if you assume that everyone commenting on the new system is opposed to it or has a problem with it. Frankly, I think it's fine, and a great improvement over the old system. I think a lot of folks feel that it at least deserves a test run before it's condemned out of hand. I think we all get that you don't like it, but that's totally okay. After all, there's nothing that prevents you from using the old system if you prefer. I, on the other hand, prefer the new system, and intend to use it, and would be greatly upset if it were dropped without seeing the light of day.
You're right, I do have a bias for many of the old rules, but in spite of my reservations about this particular change I realize that theory craft only gets you so far. I plan to give it a chance in real gameplay once the next (hopefully final) version of the PDF drops.

You have to admit, though, even among those who are supporting this change, there does seem to be a lot of confusion and debate around how it should work. That's not a bad thing, of course, but it does seem to imply that there might be flaw with the idea... or maybe not the the idea itself, but how well it integrates and balances with the assumptions that Steve built into the game's DNA at the beginning. Hmmm, I might need to noodle on that a bit more. ;)
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:33 AM   #103
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

You've got a good point there, but I also seem to remember a whole lot of debate over that whole "forgetting" thing too, back in the day! In short, I think there are always questions about things like XP rules until you actually play them for a while. Now, if we still have a huge chunk of questions about the system after we've actually played through it a few times, I'll be better prepared to concede there are major issues here! ;-)

(What I actually THINK will happen, is that future questions will more and more revolve around the costs of talents and spells in terms of XP and what seems like the "most balanced" approach to those costs in each individual's opinion -- all of which will really just amount to GM's house-ruling those costs to create a better "feel" in their home games. But, I'll wait to see how it really goes, because God knows, I've missed some major flaws in unplayed RAW before, only to have them come dancing out of the corner when we actually tried to play the games...)

Last edited by JLV; 10-04-2018 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:36 AM   #104
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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(What I actually THINK will happen, is that future questions will more and more revolve around the costs of talents and spells in terms of XP and what seems like the "most balanced" approach to those costs in each individual's opinion -- all of which will really just amount to GM's house-ruling those costs to create a better "feel" in their home games. But, I'll wait to see how it really goes, because God knows, I've missed some major flaws in unplayed RAW before, only to have them come dancing out of the corner when we actually tried to play the games...)
You're probably right and because of that, part of me would've preferred that this particular rule change had been presented instead as a variant or optional rule rather than core.
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Old 10-04-2018, 05:49 AM   #105
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

So is it possible for me to unlearn my Staff to Snake spell, now that my Staff is way to formidable and valuable for me to risk by turning it into a lowly snake to fight for me until it’s killed? And can I get some XP or a spell slot back for that?
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Old 10-04-2018, 08:12 AM   #106
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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So is it possible for me to unlearn my Staff to Snake spell, now that my Staff is way to formidable and valuable for me to risk by turning it into a lowly snake to fight for me until it’s killed? And can I get some XP or a spell slot back for that?
As your GM, I would allow you to simply swap it out for another spell of the same IQ level or lower if you've never used the spell you want to "forget". "Um, when you thought you were learning this spell, you were really learning this other spell. The book/scroll you were studying was mislabeled."

If you had used the spell before, you can "forget" it now and the next time you have enough XP to purchase a new spell, you'll get another of equal IQ or lesser IQ to the "forgotten spell" for free.
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Old 10-04-2018, 08:13 AM   #107
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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So is it possible for me to unlearn my Staff to Snake spell...?
The forgetting system is no longer. It is not mentioned in the new rules and on the forum Steve has said "good riddance"

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=13
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Old 10-05-2018, 09:35 AM   #108
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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As your GM, I would allow you to simply swap it out for another spell of the same IQ level or lower if you've never used the spell you want to "forget". "Um, when you thought you were learning this spell, you were really learning this other spell. The book/scroll you were studying was mislabeled."

If you had used the spell before, you can "forget" it now and the next time you have enough XP to purchase a new spell, you'll get another of equal IQ or lesser IQ to the "forgotten spell" for free.
You can GM my wizard any time!! But seriously I was asking how the rules applied to this because I didn’t see it mentioned yet (still combing). Also, I have not found an answer to the question of when I go up an IQ point, does that give me a slot to put a new spell, or I have to spend the xp to get the IQ point then turn around and spend 500 more xp to get the spell I want to put in it?
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Old 10-05-2018, 09:47 AM   #109
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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You can GM my wizard any time!! But seriously I was asking how the rules applied to this because I didn’t see it mentioned yet (still combing). Also, I have not found an answer to the question of when I go up an IQ point, does that give me a slot to put a new spell, or I have to spend the xp to get the IQ point then turn around and spend 500 more xp to get the spell I want to put in it?
As your GM, I would say raising IQ only give you more IQ. You'd have to pay 500XP to get that shiny new spell.

I can't speak for Steve but when Hcobb and I pointed out that there was a reference to the IQ-point (IQ slot system) in the Researching New Spells section, Steve said he removed it.
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Old 10-05-2018, 10:08 AM   #110
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

The new rules do seem to say that ALL talents/spells learned (or even upgraded, per recent post from SJ) cost 500 XP per point, regardless of IQ vs. talents/spells known.

However this seems to me more like it was driven by a desire for simple rules, than it was in consideration of what makes sense, nor in balance with the other uses of XP for moderate-level characters. The rules even say it's balanced so higher-level characters may start to consider it as an alternative to raising attributes, and the XP curve listed in the preview PDF makes it look like that point is around 37 attribute points.

That seems rather off to me, as it greatly changes the experience of being a moderate-level TFT character, who used to be able to learn a few new spells or talents without getting so much experience. (They still CAN learn talents/spells without getting to 36-37 points, but they are also faced with the dilemma of where to spend their XP at rates that give you either the ability to add one spell or one-point talent for the more than the XP price of going from 32 to 35 attribute points (a 30-point halfling could go from 30 to 34 points and have 100 XP left over).

I think the XP for talents/spells works as originally suggested in the long threads of months ago, where that's a way experienced people can develop without only raising attributes forever. But I don't think it should be in lieu of learning a reasonable number of talents as a lower-point-level character.

Also I think something is needed for NPCs, so it doesn't seem like it just makes sense in the system that you could train an average person ride a horse, or raise their ST/DX/IQ by several points for the same amount of effort. It undermines the whole "people average 30 points" idea.
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