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Old 08-21-2018, 12:15 AM   #21
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

Color me interested!
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:00 AM   #22
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From Kickstarter Update 194 (of 264!):

THE GOLEM

The Israeli Golem was unique amongst the cybertanks of the Last War. It was designed and programmed as the ultimate infantry carrier, able to deliver six squads of battlesuited infantry safely to an objective, and support them afterward.

Golem Record Sheet - 1 Main Battery (Atk 4 Rng 3 Def 4), 3 Secondary Battery (Atk 3 Rng 2 Def 3), 3 Missile Racks (Def 4), 9 Internal Missiles (Atk 6 Rng 5), 10 Antipersonnel (Atk 1 Rng 1 Def 1), 2 Squad Bays (Def 8, Capacity 3), 48 Tread Units (Move starts at 3), 20 AU, Size 7

Special Rules:

Ogre Squad Bay (SQ). An armored internal bay for carrying infantry (see 15.00-15.03).

15.00 Ogre Squad Bays. Certain cybertanks such as the Golem can carry infantry within Squad Bays.

A Squad Bay has a capacity (the number of squads it may carry) and a defense value. Squad Bays may be targeted in combat (see 15.02), but the bays themselves cannot be destroyed.

The Ogre is still destroyed (7.13.3) once all firable weapons and treads are gone.

15.01 Mounting and dismounting Squad Bays. Follow the rules given in 5.11.3 to mount and dismount infantry. Place infantry which mount a squad bay in the relevant section of the Ogre’s record sheet, or place the infantry off the map with the relevant “squad bay” counter.
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:04 AM   #23
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In general, I feel the stats and rules are fine with three exceptions. First, given that it carries nearly the same weapons as the Mk. IV (and more than the Fencer) plus two internal bays, the Golem should be Size 8. Second, the internal bays should not be targetable; any units carried within have to deploy to be useful. If they stay inside, then they have no effect on the battle anyway. Third, I feel the bays should be able to carry three squads of INF or a single LGEV or Lt. Tank each. It's not specified in the rules, but any units the Golem is carrying should be purchased, and count for victory points, separately.

Note that changing the Squad Bay to something more generic would also allow for uniting some of the special rules for the Ninja and Vulcan. The Ninja can mount a "mission module" that, as we saw in Ogrezine, is large enough to contain an LGEV drone. The Vulcan has equivalent internal cargo space to the Golem. So I propose that general rules for Cargo Bays be added to section 3.04.2, rule 14.02 add a single bay to the Ninja, and the current rule 15.02.1 be revised to say that the Vulcan has two internal cargo bays, and then go on to list its external stowage capacity.

This also suggests that the Ninja could carry INF or LADs, both of which seem thematically appropriate for a commando unit! Imagine it laying down artillery drones before launching a raid, or deploying engineers to destroy a bridge behind enemy lines, or carrying squads of Rangers to contact and supply insurgent forces.
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:19 AM   #24
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I'd done up a simplified Ogre Record Sheet for the Golem in Word after trawling around the forums and web for data. Slightly modified to use either INF or a Drone in the 'cargo bay'. Using the above post, you could swap out the INF for a Drone, or an LAD, etc.

Golem (IDF Mk. III) 20 AU - Size 7 (8?)

1 Main Battery:
A4 -- R3 -- D4
O

3 Secondary Battery:
A3 -- R2 -- D3
O O O

3 Missile Racks:
D4
O O O

9 Internal Missiles:
A6 -- R5
OOO OOO OOO

10 Anti-Personnel:
A1 -- R1 -- D1
OOOOO OOOOO

2 Utility Bays (D8 -- Capacity 3)
(may release one unit per turn)
O O

2 Units; either 3/1 INF, LGEV, or LAD
O O

48 Tread Units:
Move starts at 3
OOOO OOOO
OOOO OOOO

Drops to 2
OOOO OOOO
OOOO OOOO

Drops to 1
OOOO OOOO
OOOO OOOO

Last edited by Mack_JB; 08-21-2018 at 06:28 AM. Reason: formatting
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
In general, I feel the stats and rules are fine with three exceptions. First, given that it carries nearly the same weapons as the Mk. IV (and more than the Fencer) plus two internal bays, the Golem should be Size 8. Second, the internal bays should not be targetable; any units carried within have to deploy to be useful. If they stay inside, then they have no effect on the battle anyway. Third, I feel the bays should be able to carry three squads of INF or a single LGEV or Lt. Tank each. It's not specified in the rules, but any units the Golem is carrying should be purchased, and count for victory points, separately.

Note that changing the Squad Bay to something more generic would also allow for uniting some of the special rules for the Ninja and Vulcan. The Ninja can mount a "mission module" that, as we saw in Ogrezine, is large enough to contain an LGEV drone. The Vulcan has equivalent internal cargo space to the Golem. So I propose that general rules for Cargo Bays be added to section 3.04.2, rule 14.02 add a single bay to the Ninja, and the current rule 15.02.1 be revised to say that the Vulcan has two internal cargo bays, and then go on to list its external stowage capacity.

This also suggests that the Ninja could carry INF or LADs, both of which seem thematically appropriate for a commando unit! Imagine it laying down artillery drones before launching a raid, or deploying engineers to destroy a bridge behind enemy lines, or carrying squads of Rangers to contact and supply insurgent forces.
I really, really like everything there! Very efficient use of existing rules to make both the existing rules and these new ones into more than the sum of their parts.

I'm trying to find a counter-proposal for leaving something bay-related targetable (best I've come up with is the attachment point, tow hitch style, but that's some five-nines purity handwavium right there), but am having a hard time of it because if you can't target the reactor or AI core directly, then you shouldn't be able to target anything else inside.

I'm only trying because I see scenario potential in making a cybertank drop its cargo prematurely, or making it unable to load once it gets to the extraction point. That gives the defenders options in a scenario where there's Ninja sneaking in to extract a group of commandos under the cover of darkness, or there's a Vulcan that needs to grab a shipping container full of something important and GTFO, or...
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
I'm trying to find a counter-proposal for leaving something bay-related targetable (best I've come up with is the attachment point, tow hitch style, but that's some five-nines purity handwavium right there), but am having a hard time of it because if you can't target the reactor or AI core directly, then you shouldn't be able to target anything else inside.
The functional difference is the AI core is buried inside meters of BPC; a cargo area's BPC would be much thinner, so easier (i.e., possible) to damage. It's also necessarily an external-facing component (i.e., has a door), which should be targetable just like any other external Ogre component.

Not too sure how I feel about the "rattle the units inside, but leave the bay itself undamaged" though.
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Old 08-22-2018, 02:59 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Not too sure how I feel about the "rattle the units inside, but leave the bay itself undamaged" though.
Well, let us know how you feel. We're just bull-sessioning here.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:22 AM   #28
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
Well, let us know how you feel. We're just bull-sessioning here.
If I was sure, I'd tell you. I'm not exactly known for keeping my opinions to myself. :-)

Just some thoughts on justification so far...

If it is just a troop transport (which I believe it should be), not a cargo port, "hitting" the INF without damaging the port represents concussive kills. The question I have is does that make sense? The door could be smaller for just INF which would allow it to be strong enough to avoid damage. That would also cover why it works for hitting INF and would not work for hitting a drone or LT or something in a cargo port.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
If I was sure, I'd tell you. I'm not exactly known for keeping my opinions to myself. :-)

Just some thoughts on justification so far...

If it is just a troop transport (which I believe it should be), not a cargo port, "hitting" the INF without damaging the port represents concussive kills. The question I have is does that make sense? The door could be smaller for just INF which would allow it to be strong enough to avoid damage. That would also cover why it works for hitting INF and would not work for hitting a drone or LT or something in a cargo port.
That's the dilemma I ran into: no matter what approach I tried, it ended up opening a can of worms I'd rather not open, or creating logical inconsistencies. Trust me, no good comes from entertaining the idea that BPC spalls, and that's why stuff inside these boxes is susceptible. So many "Well then what about" follow-ups...

In a little more long form for why I eventually ended up trying to steal a Vulcan's hitch...if this new unified 'mission module' can be swapped, as the Ninja's use case would indicate, that means it has to be removable. In turn, the module being removable means something is attaching it to the Ogre, introducing a weak point (albeit a very difficult to actually hit one, hence the absurd D rating). Blow the attachment point, the module drops in the Ogre's hex. Now you've got a shipping container full of something...infantry, a "disabled" light vehicle, etc...that is a sitting duck hoping to hold on long enough for its contents to dismount next turn.

The drawback of this is that not every Cybertank would necessarily need 'module' versions...in some cases, it makes sense for them to be permanently attached.
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Last edited by TheAmishStig; 08-22-2018 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:45 AM   #30
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

Just spit-balling an idea ... what if the hatch was actually underneath the entire unit, it's a floor hatch?. Harder to target that way, and still allows egress for the occupants or equipment.
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