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Old 01-30-2009, 10:21 AM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

Greetings, all!

Many alternate timelines feature blimps/zeppelins/derigibles as a tech that got more development than here on Earth-0. Examples include Red Alert, TimeShift, IW/AE's Gensback, Arcanum (if you count it as a very alternate earth . . .), War Front Turning Point, and probably many others I don't know (I've seen some mentioned on the fora, but don't remember the names).

But the question is: what do the civilizations of these worlds have that we don't? What would make derigibles feasible?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

Off the top I would say that heavier/denser air would increase resistance against planes, forcing them to use more power to achieve the same effect; while floating gasses would rise with greater force and therefore be more effective.

Im sure there are probably other aspects of physics that would hinder this but it probably wouldnt be that obvious, or you could just justify it as falling under different laws specific to the world.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:42 AM   #3
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Default Re: [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molokh
Greetings, all!

Many alternate timelines feature blimps/zeppelins/derigibles as a tech that got more development than here on Earth-0. Examples include Red Alert, TimeShift, IW/AE's Gensback, Arcanum (if you count it as a very alternate earth . . .), War Front Turning Point, and probably many others I don't know (I've seen some mentioned on the fora, but don't remember the names).

But the question is: what do the civilizations of these worlds have that we don't? What would make derigibles feasible?

Thanks in advance!
I'm not acquainted with any of the examples given, but am aware of the concept.

In fact, it's used in The Peshawar Lancers by S.M. Stirling.

The main thing that seems to make the difference is not something those other worlds have, it's something they don't have. And that something is heavier-than-air craft. The moment that airplanes get into the air, the days of dirigibles are numbered.

Airplanes are cheaper and have less crew. And as engine power and airframe durability increase, their load capacity matches zeppelins/blimps and their speed exceeds them. Not to mention that they are easier to handle and don't require large ground crews just to land them.

There was a reason that lighter-than-air craft were relegated to submarine hunting over waters well away from enemy aircraft and to providing mobile advertising.

Of course, if we discover a light, strong, gas-tight, and difficult to penetrate material that holds hydrogen/helium, resists cannon fire and actual fire, and is cheap to make, that whole equation might change. Of course, it would also help if there was a cheap and portable source of energy for the engines, which could also be used to heat the hydrogen/helium safely and increase lift.

Then all that's needed is some fast and safe way to land the things, so they can load and unload passengers and cargo.

All-in-all, I find dirigibles and blimps a lot more realistic if no one has discovered how to build an airplane.

...

Hmm. Now, if there were no actual internal combustion engines--or jets--airplanes probably wouldn't be feasible. That would require a different type of engine to provide motive power for the heavier-than-air craft, but I think a Stirling engine would work. (So did S.M. Stirling--who did not invent the Stirling engine.)
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:52 AM   #4
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Default Re: [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

Other things may factor into the decision as to whether or not Zeppelins are cost effective or not. For one thing, the Hindenberg's disaster was based not just on the fact that Hydrogen is itself flamible, but that the dope used to coat the surface material holding the hydrogen in - is also itself, highly flamible.

GURPS SPACE gives a hint as to how the alternate time lines might develop. What if "safe tech" is not a guiding concern of the people who utilize the Zeps? What if instead of using the cheaper chemicals used to coat the gasbag envelopes, were instead - more expensive formulations that WERE more flame resistant? What if, despite the safety aspects involved, the Zeps were actually cheaper to maintain (low tech requirements) as well as operate? What if, instead of using Hydrogen, the more expensive Helium was ordered in quantity - making the safety of the Zeps that much higher overall?

Lots of "what ifs" involved where the Zeps might have remained in service instead of being phased out.

One could almost ask "What if" regards to the Challenger Disaster of the United States space endeavors. What if the Shuttle had never blown up - how might history have been changed? What if the problem of falling insulation foam had been examined more critically to the point where, although more expensive, the designs had minimized the potential for such failures? How might history have gone then?

That is the FUN if you will, of having alternate time lines in alternate universes. If you want to have some real fun, try imagining a "set" if you will of universes, where they all are based upon the "yes it happened"/"No it didn't happen" premise. What if in the United States, President Lincoln's assassination had an 80% chance of success based on the Assassin's circumstances upon firing his pistol. In 80% of the universes that exist - President Lincoln was assassinated. In the other 20% - he lives on.

What if the Gatlin gun's designer had died in childbirth, making the invention of the Gatlin gun delayed. How might that have changed the development of machine guns? Would World War I have been as bloody as it had been? The list goes on and on.

So, to recap - why does one have to presume that our timeline made the best decisions where Zeppelins were concerned to the extent that they remained a fixture in other universes? ;)
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:53 AM   #5
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Default Re: [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

Another alternative is a setting in which fuel is expensive, for instance when oil production enters depletion, and then Zeppelins and such become more attractive as they require less fuel than airliners. Historically, they tended to be more like luxury ocean liners than passenger jets, so that is a potential use as well.

Wikipedia suggests that zeppelin analogues could potentially be useful for lifting of super heavy cargos to places with limited development or airstrips. They are also useful for exploration or long range scouting, as they tend to have pretty big ranges.

These are just some ideas as to why zeppelins/dirigibles/etc. could be useful even in the real world, if they weren't associated with the Hindenburg.
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:05 AM   #6
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Default Re: [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

There's still plenty of potential IRL for zeppelins to be used for high end tourism - things like the Rift Valley, most jungles and deserts are best viewed from the air and a zeppelin could cruise them very effectively.
The R101 and Hindeburg disasters have cast a shadow over dirigible flight as has already been mentioned, but they may yet make a comeback - rumour has it the USAF has been pondering them for heavy lift work.

Also, a photovoltaic skin would allow the craft to do away with the majority of its fuel load - add a catalyser and fuel cell engines and you can balance the gas bag and fuel even more synchronistically.
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:12 AM   #7
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Default Re: [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

And don't forget social differences between worlds. In the timeline of "The Two Georges," jet aircraft are available for the military but the civilian populace that can afford to travel prefers zepplins. They're seen as more elegant, more comfortable and more "gentlemanly"; one character notes that if you're in such a mad rush that you have to use a jet, you've obviously put less thought into your travel than you should.
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:19 AM   #8
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Default Re: [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

Molokh- I would look into some of the history about what stopped the use of dirigibles. At the time that we stopped using them for passenger liners there were no airplanes that could carry an equivalent load. In fact I am not sure when we developed a plane that could match the Hindenburg's 100 ton lift capacity.The US had a monopoly on helium and restricted it as a strategic material so no one else was getting it and that certainly crimped things.

Using modern technology airships could be viable as aerodynes that use static and dynamic lift. Unintuitively this is not so much to improve the cargo capacity but to deal with the ground handling issues.

There is some good info out there. I have been doing research for a rebuttal of the critique of a TL10 airship that I posted a while ago. Most of the critiques were heavily influenced by the vision of a burning airship with out taking into account the tactical and technological structures that would be prevalent.

More to your point airships could thrive in an evironment where land travel is restricted by significant barriers, islands, rifts, zombie cannibals. Any where there is little incentive to create road nets. Further the use of airships represses the need to develop them. Why bother if the airship can get in and out now?
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

Some worlds with airships have them purely by rule of cool, and just assume that they're more or less analogous to WWII period naval vessels.

Currently, fixed-wing aircraft technology is highly developed and in common use, while airships have been out of fashion for decades. I don't think they're actually not practical so much as incapable of invading niches already occupied by much more mature technology. Certainly there are things they can't hope to do as well as fixed-wing or rotor aircraft, but that cuts both ways.

I imagine no-one having discovered the jet engine would hold back the planes and give the airships a better shot.

A bit of change in technological progression might have had had the propeller aircraft shut out of the air war rather than the other way around. If the first air war had featured helium-lifted zeppelins with less-flammable envelope materials, they might have been resistant enough to fighter attack to entirely change the path of aircraft development. Without the crippling vulnerability to incendiary bullets it seems plausible that zeppelin bombers and gunships would have been preferred, and early fixed-wing aircraft denied their rapid advancement.
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:29 AM   #10
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Default Re: [IW] Zeppelins mean Alternate Timelines. So, how are they made feasible?

Regarding 'no airplains', what about Gernsback?
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