[LT] Question about the optional hit locations

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Surey that would depend on how well endowed you are?

If you use "funniest home videos" as research material then the chances of hitting are more like 2-5.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

No the vitals would be 1. Just like the Chest. I'm not sure whether the Groin is large enough to be a roll of 2 or 2-3. I'm thinking 2-3.

It's always a fine balance you need to find. You don't want it to be too easy, because abusive players will milk that to the last bit. OTOH my few years of practicing ashihara karate taught me a groin-specific kick as well as some other kicks which aimed at the lower torso were quite likely to hit where it hurts the most and not that very difficult. In theory, of course. That place was off limits during sparring and competitions.

Considering how much of the area - if you look at the torso in 2D - is organs, hitting the vitals on a 1 seems low. But not all organs are considered Vitals, perhaps it's just the heart and perhaps liver/kidneys and so on.
And the groin seems to also have large areas which are painful to be stomped in.

[Jonas]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

It's always a fine balance you need to find. You don't want it to be too easy, because abusive players will milk that to the last bit. OTOH my few years of practicing ashihara karate taught me a groin-specific kick as well as some other kicks which aimed at the lower torso were quite likely to hit where it hurts the most and not that very difficult. In theory, of course. That place was off limits during sparring and competitions.

Considering how much of the area - if you look at the torso in 2D - is organs, hitting the vitals on a 1 seems low. But not all organs are considered Vitals, perhaps it's just the heart and perhaps liver/kidneys and so on.
And the groin seems to also have large areas which are painful to be stomped in.

Aye. After tracking down a GM I know on mIRC it finally all clicked, and while I'm not sure if the result is 100% RAW its what I'll be running. Mainly that the Torso gets split into Upper and Lower regions, with the Upper region becoming the Chest and the Lower region plus Groin becoming the Abdomen. Both get a 1 on 1d6 chance to hit something vital when either are targeted, and respectively take the place of the former Torso and Groin locations on the random hit table. I'm still going to allow deliberate attacks on the Abdomens 'Groin' sub-region for the expected effects at an additional -3 much like targeting a limbs joint, further clarifying that said target is only the space between ones legs as per DanHowards suggestion. Players being players, they would be disappointed in not being able to make such a 'cheap shot'. Which lets be honest, how 'cheap' such a thing is depends entirely on which side of the equation you are on. ;)

[Bruno]

For GURPS, impaling Vitals hits do 3x the injury and thus genuinely risk "instant" death. This means that "organs" does not map 1:1 to Vitals - there are plenty of organs that you can have not only perforated, but entirely removed without dying, and if you can cope with the pain (due to adrenaline or pure grit) even without impairing combat.

The entire digestive tract is famous for being lethal if perforated (to the point of being "gut shot" becoming an Old West cliche) but it takes days to weeks to kill you, and not only can someone gut-shot stay up, but they can scream their head off about how you kilt them, and try to shoot you back. That argues strongly against 3x damage, but for requiring an Infection roll at the penalty for infected matter in the wound for, say, 4-6 impaling abdomen attacks from the front, 5-6 from the back. Possibly applying a Special Infection if you blow the roll for an extra penalty on recovery and possibly more tox damage, I'm not sure. The infection definitely should prevent natural healing of the wound until resolved (by antibiotics and surgery or by death).

While a damaged liver or kidney might not technically keel you dead on the spot, they're sufficiently vascularized that I'd call it a useable abstraction for games not using severe bleeding rules from Martial Arts. I have no idea about a ruptured spleen - you can live without one if removed surgically but having one burst seems to be a major surgical crisis.

[Beoferret]

This thread has made things a little clearer. But does the chest location now count as the "default" target of attacks, like the torso did in the basic set? I ask, since I want to provide players with the option of either using hit locations (both random and deliberately targeted) or simply attacking. For mooks, I was considering having most make simple attacks, while a few would possibly make attacks on random locations or with called shots.

Secondly:
a) would it be possible to have rigid torso armor that extends over the abdomen, but only in the front?
b) would a piece of metal (for covering the front abdomen area) attached on a hinge to the primary cuirass, have to count as "segmented plate"? (I'm thinking here of the Rouets cuirass (from ancient Thrace).

Please feel-free to ignore these last questions if they threaten to derail this discussion.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Beoferret

But does the chest location now count as the "default" target of attacks, like the torso did in the basic set?

Never came up during the playtest. I guess it would.

Secondly:
a) would it be possible to have rigid torso armor that extends over the abdomen, but only in the front?
b) would a piece of metal (for covering the front abdomen area) attached on a hinge to the primary cuirass, have to count as "segmented plate"? (I'm thinking here of the Rouets cuirass (from ancient Thrace).

A) Not if you want to be able to fight in it.
B) Could be either. I would probably class it as segmented.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Never came up during the playtest. I guess it would.

I assumed that it would, yes.

An explicit statement to that effect might have been called for, now that I consider it.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

B) Could be either. I would probably class it as segmented.

The problem here being that the stats for segmented plate are awful, which is accurate for mass produced Roman lorica segmentata, but not so accurate for TL4 articulated plate harness.

If you have, say, a DR 12 cuirass that weighs 33 lbs., a DR 8 fauld will weigh 14 lbs.

Do those proportions look right to you? Two thirds the protective value seems about right, but weighing in at 42% of the back- and breastplate combined seems very excessive.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

An explicit statement to that effect might have been called for, now that I consider it.

Besides having a -0 modifier, where is Torso ever defined as the "default" location?

[umbros]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I have no idea about a ruptured spleen - you can live without one if removed surgically but having one burst seems to be a major surgical crisis.

Years ago I ruptured my spleen and had to have it surgically removed. From personal experience I can tell you that it will take the fight right out of you. It hurt so bad that I couldn't stand up. Worse than a kidney stone and worse than a broken nose. If I hadn't had the surgery I would have died from the internal bleeding within hours. Long term effects of no spleen have been minimal; only a slightly weakened immune system (Pneumo-vax vaccination required every few years).

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If you have, say, a DR 12 cuirass that weighs 33 lbs., a DR 8 fauld will weigh 14 lbs.

Do those proportions look right to you? Two thirds the protective value seems about right, but weighing in at 42% of the back- and breastplate combined seems very excessive.

I've already suggested reduced weight for segmented plate in the errata thread.