[QUERY] The groin anomoly

[SolemnGolem]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Nah, that the "Bourne Anamoly." "The Groin Anamoly" was written by Micheal Crichton. Or am I thinking of "The Jurrassic Part"?

There were similar plot details just left dangling in The Abdomina Strain, too.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Well, unless you're Dirk Diggler, -5 is something the size of the entire head. The actual target area is something roughly the size of a baseball; I'd probably say -8 to hit with a thrusting attack, but because of the "self-guiding" nature of the location, I'd likely halve that for upward swinging attacks, including the typical knees and kicks.

Maybe just call it -4, because the avenues of attack are fairly limited (straight on, bottom up; top down isn't likely to work)?

Hit location penalties are not the same as size modifier penalties. This is important! It includes a soft modifier based on reflexive protection of the bodypart, relative mobility, and how posture tends to passively shield the body part.

Torso is "+0", but SM 0 is TWO YARDS. That's the biggest glaringest clue that body hit location penalties are not based entirely on SM.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Hit location penalties are not the same as size modifier penalties. This is important! It includes a soft modifier based on reflexive protection of the bodypart, relative mobility, and how posture tends to passively shield the body part.

Torso is "+0", but SM 0 is TWO YARDS. That's the biggest glaringest clue that body hit location penalties are not based entirely on SM.

Hit Location penalties clearly START with size, though. And starting with size, with roughly the -8 figure I came up with, is the right place to start.

Realistically, a torso is about 18" x 36", that is, 1/4 the area of the SM+0 1yd wide by 2yds tall figure, and thus should, based on size alone, be about -1 or -2. There's a boost based on 'basically square,' I think that brings it to 0 or -1. It was likely a conflation of "unaimed attacks are anywhere at the body" and "Aw, crap...cut out the nuisance roll and default that to Torso" and "normal uses of a skill are not at a penalty, 'cause that's dumb" that led to the oddities with size and Torso modifiers.

From there, though, I think starting with my -8 and noting that modifiers due to accessibility explicitly admits that due to channeling effects and relative ease of targeting (self-guiding) with a swung attack or a kick, that making it -4 would be more realistic.

[DanHoward]

Based on the predominance of a specific type of injury on home video submissions on TV the hit modifier for the groin should be at least +5 :)

[Bruno]

Watched my friends large dog punch him in the groin yesterday at gaming, actually. Completely by accident. Dog got locked outside for 15 minutes until the owner calmed down and got his self-esteem back :D

At 11 on the hit location table it's pretty common, but just from watching those shows (where most of the groin-collisions are probably "random hit locations") I sort of think it needs to take up the entire spread from 9-12. ANd +5 to hit for deliberate attacks :D

We can squeeze the other locations in, right?

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Watched my friends large dog punch him in the groin yesterday at gaming, actually. Completely by accident.

IMO for large dogs an low-line "attack" like that would call for a ruling like the one in MA for knee-strike, thus giving the beast no penalty for hit location in this case... :-)
Indeed for horizontal animals of this size the genitals are a perfectly comfortable target, right at the height of their head and their teeth of course :->

Anyway, especially in the case of ranged combat with random hit location, it seems really necessary to have a differentiation between "groin (-3)" as a hit location in general and the genitals in particular, because otherwise we get an involuntarily comedy-effect with lots of hits in the nuts in each gunfight... ;-)

[rosignol]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Anyway, especially in the case of ranged combat with random hit location, it seems really necessary to have a differentiation between "groin (-3)" as a hit location in general and the genitals in particular, because otherwise we get an involuntarily comedy-effect with lots of hits in the nuts in each gunfight... ;-)

Yeah. I like -3 for 'lower abdomen' and -5 for 'the goolies' (with a +2 for an appropriate attack, like a kick from the front). It would tone down the slapstick feel that sometimes results when using the random hit location tables (when one PC takes *multiple* hits to location 11 in the same fight...).

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Even when a kick lands between the legs that doesn't guarantee that it will hit the *erhm* critical spot.

Actually, it is easy to hit the testicles. But not with a quick. With a knee strike. Preferably after a grapple… As it is explained in GURPS (Knee strike, Basic Set, page 404): “and if you grappled from the front, you may attack his groin at no penalty!”

Originally Posted by Kyle Aaron

Simple: the “groin” includes the abdomen, “below the belt.” A blow there hurts women as much as men, and hurts more than a blow of equal strength in, say, the torso.

Actually, when karatekas kick what GURPS call “groin”, they don't aim at the balls. They aimed at the perineum. It is named shomen-geri and it is a very dangerous kick.

Sensei Miyagi killed two yakuzas using that strike, literally. It is lethal because there are a lot of nerves there and the weight of the target's body is in addition to the strength of the blow.

Originally Posted by Alexondria

Also, I remember a kick from a martial arts class I was in once. Basically we were taught a kick practicing hitting the stomach. As we are practicing the sensei lectures us that we shouldn't use this kick below the belt unless we really mean it.

The kick to the stomach is named mae-geri. It is not as effective as shomen-geri and, as you wrote it, it is very dangerous for the one who does it. One tried it once against Sensei Naito. Sensei Naito didn't even try to parry or dodge. He just contracted his stomach muscles and the one who tried it miserably fell on the floor.

Mae-geri is used in sportive karate, but not in traditional martial art karate. But shomen-geri is extensively used, because it is very quick (especially after grappling the foot of a foe who tried mae-geri), not dangerous for the one who does it (the kick is not very high) and very hard to parry or dodge!

Sanchin-dachi is a posture designed to prevent the foot to hit the perineum.

Originally Posted by Alexondria

Basically the story was that if we used the kick below the belt it would separate the pelvic bone, which would then go on to cut through our opponents intestines. The only way they were likely to live through it is if we were fighting in an emergency room. This wasn't a particularly powerful kick either. From what I remember when used to hit someone in the stomach it just knocked the wind out of them

I never heard about breaking the pelvic bone. But, shomen-geri is much easy to do and much more effective than mae-geri. If you want to strike back a foe, sokuto-geri is much more powerful than mae-geri. Actually, mae-geri is a sportive kick, not really a combat strike. Unless your foe has weak stomach muscles.

Originally Posted by DryaUnda

Ironically, I was taught not to kick in the crotch for my sake. Specifically, the crotch would be the first thing some thug would think of guarding. In any event, we weren't supposed to kick above the knee, anyway -- too unbalancing.

Hitting above the belt is unbalancing. But hitting above the knee is not (if you are trained to do it). And, for the guard, it is really easy: just punch the jaw (either a feint or a true strike) and then do a shomen geri. It is very hard to defend against such a double attack . Even for a black belt.

Originally Posted by Toadkiller Dog

It's often appallingly easy to hit...which is why direct thrusting kicks aren't so useful in sport fights, where hitting the groin is almost always illegal.

And that is also why sportive karate use a lot of kick above the belt. They are beautiful movement, easy to notice (either by arbiters and the public) but not very effective and, then, not very dangerous... Except if the adversary is unable to defend against them, of course... And they are very unbalanced! Just look at Tae-Kwondo competitions. They fall down almost all the time!

Kick under the belt are harder to notice, to defend against, and dangerous. That is why they are completely forbidden. Except in the Kyokushinkai competitions; but, even there, only mawashi-geri in the the thighs are allowed! No sokuto-geri in the knees, and no shomen-geri, of course. Those are made for true combat.

Originally Posted by Toadkiller Dog

Even if it was true - that some thug is just going to cover up - that's not a bad thing. Knowing someone's defensive reaction ahead of time, and being able to force that defensive reaction, is an advantage to the attacker. To cover there, the opponent must do something - turn the hips to bring a leg in between, drop a hand or hands for a parry, dodge backwards, etc. and you can train to follow that up and take advantage.

There are some posture that allow to defend against a kick to the groin (perineum or testicles): sanchin-dachi, nekoashi-dachi or keo-dachi. But they are very hard to learn! I'm a black belt and I just begin to do them effectively...

Originally Posted by Toadkiller Dog

I've gotten taught that too, and it's not really unbalancing to kick high. It's just a bit slower than a low kick, and is more vulnerable to leg picks. You're usually better off attacking the knees if you're in a self-defense situation against the archetypical martial arts class example Big Thug Who Knows Leg Grapple. But kicks above the knees - and above the waist - have lots of uses. Shin kicks to the thighs, push kicks to the lower body, front and side kicks to the groin, they're all good above-the-knees kicks. If you can do it fast, a kick to the head or neck can end a fight (if you're slow, it'll still end the fight, just not in your favor). They're not marginal or unsafe techniques, although they generally are secondary choices in "self-defense" situations.

Oh yes, high kicks are very unbalancing! Not in itself. But if the foe is able to defend himself and use his both arms to parry your mawashi-geri, while having a good posture (shiko-dachi for instance) you fall inevitably on the floor.

So, if, it can be used, it is a better choice to do it when the foe is not able to defend himself against (exhausted, stunned, or not trained...). Thus, as you wrote it, you can finish him with a mawashi-geri in the head (swinging high kick) which is devastating.

But, in most cases, it is not a good idea. True martial artists are trained to parry against those kind of kicks. Shomen-geri is a much better idea. Or a knee-strike (hiza-geri) in the testicles. And it is devastating too!


Edit

Here is a video of tae-kwondo athletes (and good ones, I suppose) to prove what I am writing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOQa_OlH5S8

Just look at how often the one who kicks high fall on the floor… And how easily the blows are dodged! Of course, since it is a competition, and since the adversary can't move back as far as he wants, they still hit. But what a low ratio off good strikes!

[Anders]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Has there been an official comment on the hit location of GROIN? Does it cover the same area as Area 11 in 3e, or does it only cover the small area between the legs?

It will probably be answered in Low-Tech...
oh the delicious, juicy irony...

[Gollum]

Now, coming back to the main subject, I have ever use the groin location as written in the rules. In my description, it is either the perineum or the testicles. No matter. Both are very sensitive!

For armors, I don't know. I didn't find anything in GURPS books. Except the fur loincoth!

;-)

Perhaps will we have something more precise in Low-Tech, as Asta Kask wrote it.