Vitals and torso

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Remember that hit location penalties abstract size, mobility, and probability of occlusion, and assume like-sized attackers wielding weapons at waist-to-shoulder height. They aren't really SM at all, and separating out all these subsidiary effects is probably very difficult. I'm not sure how helpful this is, but it's something to bear in mind.

Why are they identical for human/nonhuman and mêlée/ranged attacks?

Also, does attacking a non-moving target affect HL penalties?

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Why are they identical for human/nonhuman and mêlée/ranged attacks?

Also, does attacking a non-moving target affect HL penalties?

As you know, Compendium 2 (p. 54) and GURPS Dragons (p. 53) provide some good rules and alternate tables for handling hit locations for non humanlike creatures.

But they aren't in Basic Set 4e. I would like to see updated these rules from Compendium 2.

Regarding melee/ranged attacks lack of differences in hit locations, sometimes I ask myself the same question.

Greetings

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by demonsbane

As you know, Compendium 2 (p. 54) and GURPS Dragons (p. 53) provide some good rules and alternate tables for handling hit locations for non humanlike creatures.

But they aren't in Basic Set 4e. I would like to see updated these rules from Compendium 2.

Anything wrong with the extensive tables on p. B553?

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Anything wrong with the extensive tables on p. B553?

OOPS! LOL!

I'm happy to see that.

Explanation: I'm still learning (slowly) 4e!

Thanks a lot for your answer.

[Screamingeek]

I just briefly scanned this thread, and I am sure this is point is obvious, but here goes:
I recently returned to my childhood hobby of hunting deer. (yeah,yeah go ahead and complain about animal cruelty, I kill them because they are tasty, and eating them alive would really be cruel).
My little brother who has been hunting non-stop for twenty years gave me a little advice: Aim for the deer and you might miss the deer, aim for the deer's heart, and even if you miss, you'll probably hit the deer.
In reality, the deer's vitals are at the bottom of his silouette as you take aim. A miss to the vitals can go right under his chest. A "Truth" of aiming, known by anyone who practices shooting or throwing a ranged weapon is: aim big, miss big; aim small, miss small.
This advice works great when aiming at the center of a round object, like a bull's eye on a dart-board, but it's tougher when aiming at, say, the top-right corner of a square.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Remember that hit location penalties abstract size, mobility, and probability of occlusion, and assume like-sized attackers wielding weapons at waist-to-shoulder height. They aren't really SM at all, and separating out all these subsidiary effects is probably very difficult. I'm not sure how helpful this is, but it's something to bear in mind.

So what are you suggesting, exactly?

- That torsos move even more predictably than stationary inanimate objects?
- That combatants habitually leave them wide open to attack?
- That there's a bonus to hit anything at torso height that just happened to be factored into the hit location numbers but never actually mentioned anywhere?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Xplo

So what are you suggesting, exactly?

- That torsos move even more predictably than stationary inanimate objects?

Stationary inanimate objects will have a TDM to hit.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Xplo

I must disagree, given the generally blood-rich anatomy of the torso and the mass of vital organ tissue that can potentially fail if damaged. Injury to these areas is simulated by front-loading extra damage (using increased wounding modifiers and other special effects) i.e. making them Vitals, hence it follows that Vitals necessarily include vitals and exist in the center of mass, or very near it.

The fact that there are more vitals (in common language) in the torso than in most other parts of the body is already taken into account in the rules as they are written.

When you hit the torso, you can kill someone, while you can't do it by hitting an arm, for instance. Furthermore, a bleeding has more chance to happen when the torso is hit than when an arm is hit. Indeed, the maximum damage that Average Joe can take while being hit to an arm is 6 points. So, his maximum penalty to the HT roll to avoid bleeding is only -1. But if Average Joe is hit to the torso, this penalty can be -2, -3 or even -10…

As you can see, being hit at the torso is already much more dangerous that being hit at an arm. So you don’t need to turn the torso into Vitals (in GURPS terms) to obtain these realism.

When I GM, I simply rule that a blow to the torso which does enough damage to kill a character (or to make him fall unconscious) has hit something vital. And if it kills the character, it can even be the heart. After all, with the fourth edition, decapitation is just a descriptive effect. So, a killing blow to the torso can also be described as a blow to the heart (especially when a critical success, double or triple damage, is scored).

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Xplo

So what are you suggesting, exactly?
- That torsos move even more predictably than stationary inanimate objects?
- That combatants habitually leave them wide open to attack?
- That there's a bonus to hit anything at torso height that just happened to be factored into the hit location numbers but never actually mentioned anywhere?

As it has been said just above by Ze'Manel Cunha, don't forget the TDM. Hit penalty modifiers for the different parts of the body are generic. They are modifiers easy to use in combat - and that is why they are printed on the character sheet.

But, of course, they can be lowered or improved by the GM when the situation is different from two men fighting face to face or a man shooting at someone who is trying to hit him or to hit someone else.

Examples:
If I try to strike someone's foot with a knife without bending down first, it will be much more harder to succeed... If I am lying down and if I try to grapple the foot of someone who is standing just in front of my head, it will be much more easy than if I am standing... And if I am crouching, hitting the skull of someone who is standing with a shortsword is very hard, perhaps even impossible...

As you can see, modifiers to hit the different parts of the body may be modified in order to fit the situation. They are just quick references, a way to help the GM being fair with every character, especially during combat, while he has to make decisions quickly. But they are not rigid constraints to use as they are, even when they become unrealistic.

The table of task difficulty modifiers is one of the rules as they are written, too.