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Old 12-04-2009, 03:12 AM   #91
nik1979
 
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

Even at Nerfed Thr+2 pi+ Bows are still plenty dangerous when one considers availability of better armors. Even Basic Set prices for armor makes Struggling NPCs limited to DR2 or DR1 considering that they have some basic supplies and necessities.

I've tried making comprehensive Load Outs figuring typical Struggling/Working Class Characters (Peasants and fairly successful Outlaws) and at DR1 and Light Shields still have trouble dealing with (ST11) 1d+1 pi.

If you use Cutting Arrows against 2lbs shields (DR1, 10hp), the shield would last 3 hits on average. Nerfing it to pi+ makes it last up to 7 shots (average 4dmg, 1/2 dmg injury tolerance). A cheap shield would have half the HP (if you want to just keep it simple).
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Old 12-04-2009, 03:25 AM   #92
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

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Originally Posted by nik1979 View Post
Even at Nerfed Thr+2 pi+ Bows are still plenty dangerous when one considers availability of better armors. Even Basic Set prices for armor makes Struggling NPCs limited to DR2 or DR1 considering that they have some basic supplies and necessities.
Indeed.

I wasn't trying to suggest that they had no role at all. I simply meant to convey that in GURPS, they are far more useful and less difficult to use than historically.
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Old 12-04-2009, 05:12 AM   #93
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

Back to original question,
In low point campaign with no supernatural aid, dedicated Archer is near useless most time,
and even in ideal condition is not optimal choice.

Before combat,
Lots of post mentioned sneaking, climbing trees and even hunting animals as part of archer role. But all of this feats have nothing to do with archer or bow.
This kind of scouting can be done by anyone in party, so no credit to archer.

In combat,
archer do damage only based on thrust, and hit once per 3 attack of melee.
So even if he could manage 2 hits before melee begin (6+ rounds of running, 30+ yards spotting distance),
past 3rd round of melee combat, melee warriors contribution become more and more better.
Or another point of view, one melee warrior will produce damage as 3 archers.


Bodkin arrow, are they really that good?
Assume hit by arrow for 7 points of damage.
normal arrow (impaling damage), against DR2, injury 10 HP.
bodkin arrow (piercing damage, AD2), against DR2, injury 6 HP.
normal arrow (impaling damage), against DR4, injury 6 HP.
bodkin arrow (piercing damage, AD2), against DR4, injury 5 HP.
normal arrow (impaling damage), against DR6, injury 2 HP.
bodkin arrow (piercing damage, AD2), against DR6, injury 4 HP.

Archery as auxiliary ranged weapon in group..
Its been said here, somebody use Xbow as strong as possible.
More damage, better accuracy, easier skill.
If Xbow is not available, I would go for weapon using SW damage.
slingshot, atlatl...
If those are not available, then bow.
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Old 12-04-2009, 08:53 AM   #94
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kure View Post
If Xbow is not available, I would go for weapon using SW damage.
slingshot, atlatl...
If those are not available, then bow.
"Never throw knives when you can throw axes."
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:40 AM   #95
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kure View Post
In combat,
archer do damage only based on thrust, and hit once per 3 attack of melee.
So even if he could manage 2 hits before melee begin (6+ rounds of running, 30+ yards spotting distance),
past 3rd round of melee combat, melee warriors contribution become more and more better.
Or another point of view, one melee warrior will produce damage as 3 archers.
Based on the flawed logic that an archer needs to stick with the bow at all times, yes.
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Old 12-04-2009, 12:52 PM   #96
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kure View Post
Back to original question,
In low point campaign with no supernatural aid, dedicated Archer is near useless most time,
and even in ideal condition is not optimal choice.

Before combat,
Lots of post mentioned sneaking, climbing trees and even hunting animals as part of archer role. But all of this feats have nothing to do with archer or bow.
This kind of scouting can be done by anyone in party, so no credit to archer.

In combat,
archer do damage only based on thrust, and hit once per 3 attack of melee.
So even if he could manage 2 hits before melee begin (6+ rounds of running, 30+ yards spotting distance),
past 3rd round of melee combat, melee warriors contribution become more and more better.
Or another point of view, one melee warrior will produce damage as 3 archers.
Sorry Kure,
much of the previous discussion has pointed out certain basic assumptions that allows an archer to thrive in Near-Realistic Low-Tech Settings that are contrary to the points you have raised.

Also consider how much of a point budget. At ST11 DX12, 100cp, a character can easily a lot a budget of 4cp on archery, and the rest of the Basic Skills that comes with being a Soldier or a Warrior

Survival
Stealth
Running
Hiking
Climbing
Packing
Swimming
Navigation
Soldier/Warrior
Observation
*tacking
Animal Handling

Even with a 45 to 30 cp budget for just skills, a "realistic" combatant with archer proficiency is still very "kick ass" compared to a more specialized character.

The difference in character creation of Fantasy vs Realistic is that in more realistic situation well rounded skill sets are more the norm because of the more problems that are not "hand waved" in the manner of play. This is reflected in the sample skill set pointed out.

Here is another point of summary.
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:59 PM   #97
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

I personally have a Really Hard Time seeing it being a good idea to spend 1 CP buying weapon bond on a bow unless the bow is first bought using Sig Gear

Bows can sometimes break/get stolen/whatever . . . then that weapon bond CP is gone
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Old 12-05-2009, 06:10 PM   #98
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Being able to hunt is Archery 14. Perhaps even Archery 12.

Archery useful in a GURPS DF campaign is more like Archery 18, or even Archery 20.
The OP wasn't talking about DF-style games:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molokh View Post
However, what about the games with normal point ranges (100-150 or below)? What are the roles of archers in those parties, especially given that learning Bow is a lifetime investment?
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:12 PM   #99
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

Stealth roll allows a hunter to stalk up to 30yrds (-6 Range penalty) of the target.

With a Longbow AoA:D (+1), and Terminal Aim (+3+1+1+) at +6

You don't really need a High bow skill, at a reduced frequency of hunting a one man sized target will feed for quite a while (if one brought adequate salt for and tools to dry the meat).

Deer at HP12 SM+1

at 1d+1 imp or with Fine Arrows is sufficient to bring it down 200lb target.

Against a typical HP12 target an arrow will deal around 8dmg, causing major wound, bleeding, Stunning and knockdown roll (B420). It might fail any one of those rolls.
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Old 12-06-2009, 03:01 PM   #100
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Default Re: Role of archers in low-tech parties?

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Originally Posted by chris1982 View Post
No it gives some perspective how hard some things are actually to do for a TL8 nerd couch potatoe.
(No insult to anyone intended)
Heh. Kaldrin is not a couch potato. How much can you bench again?
Anyway, I agree that YMMV when trying out this sort of thing, but it gives you an idea of the issues involved. Even putting balance and stability issues aside, anyone using a bow in brush for more than five minutes will quickly figure out how easy it snags on low branches and the like. Using one in a tree would be tricky. Still, the most reliable modern opinion would probably be an actual bow hunter who uses one of those tree stand things. We need to find one and go talk to him.
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