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Old 04-12-2020, 02:36 PM   #21
Say, it isn't that bad!
 
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
that's not how it works. You start with Action Points, usually equal to your HT, and then spend them for a while Doing Stuff. If you do too much stuff, too fast, you have to stop and take a breather. If you run out of AP, you can still act, but you burn a FP to replenish AP.

In many GURPSy fights, it doesn't last long enough to burn through your AP. The 12-14 AP most line combatants have is good for five to seven rounds of combat unless you're doing a lot of All-Out, Rapid Strike, or other 'burst of energy' activity, or - as written - sprinting around the battlefield like a particularly hyperactive ferret.

I'm not saying it's perfect (it's not). But it never has behaved as suggested (look around before you can do anything). The purpose of it was to organically introduce lulls and flurries into combat (which it does, by all reports) by having a currency.

It also allows using an outlast strategy, where a very fit fighter with high HT and/or other purchased advantages to pull what is effectively a Rope-a-Dope: making the other fighter wear themselves out faster than you, after which their options are extremely limited.
That does make a lot of sense.
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Old 04-12-2020, 02:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Potentially, but I'd contest that that doesn't scale upward the way you have it. If there's dozens of people on the field it's a sure thing that most of them aren't keeping track of or coordinating with most of the others on a micro time scale. (If there are hundreds, either they just aren't coordinated or a significant chunk of them are staying out of the fighting to do the coordination.) In active close combat it's probably impossible to keep track of more than maybe half a dozen people at once and taking time to improve awareness would be both ineffective (you don't have room to see what's going on anyway) and extremely unsound (because taking your eye off the people trying to stab you right this second for a larger picture gets you stabbed.)
And yet, the post that I responded to, was talking about pairing off a few people in a small fight.

Going from there to dozens is a different scale, entirely.

And yes. If people are breaking off into smaller fights, then you could just play out those smaller fights on whatever scale.
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Old 04-12-2020, 02:46 PM   #23
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
If all you are doing is Action, then you are going to lose focus on the "bigger picture", which is exactly what Donny Brook's suggestion is talking about.
Yes? I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm pointing out that what Michael Thayne is talking about isn't about losing focus. It's about physical fatigue and aerobic exhaustion and such. That is, precisely what Douglas Cole (the author of the system in question) pointed out.
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Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
And yet, the post that I responded to, was talking about pairing off a few people in a small fight.

Going from there to dozens is a different scale, entirely.

And yes. If people are breaking off into smaller fights, then you could just play out those smaller fights on whatever scale.
Seems like much the same to me, except that at the larger scale it becomes completely compulsory rather than merely possible. Each person isn't dealing with the whole picture at once, but a small subset of it. (Which might overlap with other people's subsets.)
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Old 04-12-2020, 04:34 PM   #24
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Yes? I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm pointing out that what Michael Thayne is talking about isn't about losing focus. It's about physical fatigue and aerobic exhaustion and such. That is, precisely what Douglas Cole (the author of the system in question) pointed out.
...I don't see a problem with adapting Action Points to a different purpose, though? Or maybe that part wasn't clear...
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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Seems like much the same to me, except that at the larger scale it becomes completely compulsory rather than merely possible. Each person isn't dealing with the whole picture at once, but a small subset of it. (Which might overlap with other people's subsets.)
I don't actually disagree with your point; I just didn't quite get how it fits as a response to what I posted, that you were responding to.

A small fight generally involves teamwork. Large groups generally involve small teams.

The scale goes up that high because, for example, an artillery commander might need to take into account a much larger battlefield than Platoon #123.

My post wasn't clear in a number of ways. It could have used quite a bit more refinement - excluding that the idea isn't that good in the first place. And that lack of clarity has caused additional confusion. So yeah, that's on me.
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Old 04-12-2020, 05:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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...I don't see a problem with adapting Action Points to a different purpose, though? Or maybe that part wasn't clear...
I had no idea you meant adapting them, no...

I think there's two reasons not to.

First, I don't actually see what they usefully represent for you. Donny Brook proposed counting rounds since you last took a situational awareness break as it were. That makes sense to me, your information goes 'stale' over time. But using 'points' implies you can burn or recover awareness at different rates depending on choices you make, and...well, can you? What would make you spend two points instead of one?

Second, you'd presumably be tossing basically everything in "The Last Gasp", since that is in fact a system about HT/FP-based physical stamina, and you're modeling something that is not that. So what's to adapt? Unless you just arbitrarily re-map the system to different attributes and claim that rules written for budgeting exertion work equally well for budgeting attention.
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Old 04-12-2020, 06:01 PM   #26
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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...work equally well for budgeting attention.
I think there are a few things in "Dodge This!" in Pyr 3/57 (I believe) for budgeting attention.
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Old 04-12-2020, 07:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
A small fight generally involves teamwork. Large groups generally involve small teams.

The scale goes up that high because, for example, an artillery commander might need to take into account a much larger battlefield than Platoon #123.

My post wasn't clear in a number of ways. It could have used quite a bit more refinement - excluding that the idea isn't that good in the first place. And that lack of clarity has caused additional confusion. So yeah, that's on me.
Note that that artillery commander doesn't need to consider their larger battlefield in great detail though.

I think what you're really looking at is the slower reactions of larger units, due to information having to move up through more layers of command, and orders to move back down through them. However, while those things are moving, subordinate units and individuals are still acting (hopefully), and still doing things at their normal tempo (again, you hope). The battle only looks slower as you add more men and units because you view becomes more remote.
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Old 04-13-2020, 06:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

So, kinda annoyed, here.

I already agreed the idea in the original post is not that good.

Why are the baseball bats still being applied to the dead horse?

Why are people still arguing with me about an idea I already agreed is bad?
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Old 04-13-2020, 09:52 PM   #29
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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So, kinda annoyed, here.

I already agreed the idea in the original post is not that good.

Why are the baseball bats still being applied to the dead horse?

Why are people still arguing with me about an idea I already agreed is bad?
Ummm... You do know this is the internet, right? :P

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Old 04-14-2020, 12:15 AM   #30
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Ummm... You do know this is the internet, right? :P

- Shane
True. And I probably shouldn't have argued back.

...but some of those people were 30% wrong! :P
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