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Old 08-18-2020, 02:34 PM   #1
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Super DR

This has probably already been proposed a few times, but I have not been able to find it, so I will go ahead and propose it again. In Powers (p. 160), you can use Extra Effort to boost DR as long as it has Force Field, so it would seem natural to allow Super DR, DR with Super-Effort, to balance out Super ST and to allow DR to be cost competitive with Damage Reduction (Injury Tolerance). I think that Super DR should follow these rules:

1. It would be a +300% modifier, just like Super-Effort for Lifting ST and Striking ST, which would require the Force Field (+20%) and Reflexive (+40%) modifiers as prerequisites.

2. It would require the 1 FP to activate the boosted DR for one minute and would allow characters to spend 1 FP to reflexively activate it for a minute to resist surprise attacks.

3. It could be combined with Ablative, Absorption, Can't Wear Armor, Directional, Flexible, Hardened, Limited, Malediction-Proof, Partial, Reflection, and Semi-Ablative, though it could not be combined with Tough Skin.

4. It would always use Super DR instead of Base DR for Ablative and Semi-Ablative and Base DR instead of Super DR for Absorption and Reflection (for example, a character with Super DR 8 would treat their DR as 50 for Ablative and Semi-Ablative purposes but as 8 for Absorption and Reflection purposes).

5. It explicitly could not be combined with Reduced FP Cost unless Cosmic (+50%).

6. Super DR would be capped at Level 8 for I-scale, level 14 for D-scale, level 20 for C-Scale, and level 26 for M-scale.

For example, a superhuman could have DR 8 (Force Field, +20%; Reflexive, +40%; Super-Effort, +300%) [184]. Under normal circumstances, they are treated as if they had DR 8, but they are capable of boosting their DR to 50 for one minute by paying 1 FP. They could also reflexively spend 1 FP to activate Super DR for a minute when targeted by surprise attacks.

While there are not a lot of savings for I-scale supers, the savings for D-scale or higher supers would be pretty significant. When combined with Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction), you could represent the extremely tough characters in comic books without having characters that break the bank. For example, Super DR 26 would cost an average of 598 CP, which would be comparable to Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction /10,000) [600] (and a character with both would be quite impervious to damage).

What do you think? Would you use Super DR? What modifications would you suggest to make it more balanced?
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Old 08-18-2020, 03:46 PM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Super DR

Honestly, the way Super Strength works is already dysfunctional, no need to spread that to new subsystems. I would solve this by coming up with a reworked damage system for KYoS, and permitting basing DR on ST (or HP).
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Old 08-18-2020, 04:01 PM   #3
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Super DR

I do not think that Super ST is dysfunctional as long as it is not open-ended (anything above M-Scale is problematic though, which is why I do not allow it in my games). Anyway, I personally abhore KYOS, so I would never use it as a solution.

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 08-18-2020 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 08-18-2020, 04:19 PM   #4
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Super DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I do not think that Super ST is dysfunctional as long as it is not open-ended (anything above M-Scale is problematic though, which is why I do not allow it in my games). Anyway, I personally abhore KYOS, so I would never use it as a solution.
KYoS does the same thing as super-ST except it does it in a vaguely competent way.

The other option that works reasonably well is to introduce Scale advantages (pay X points to be D-scale, and then your damage is dDamage, your hp are dHP, your DR is dDR, etc). Consistency with existing systems suggests a cost of about 500 points to be D-scale (6 levels of super-ST (zero fatigue cost, +50% cosmic to permit that) [282], 6 levels of IT(DR) (cosmic: round down) [225]).
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Old 08-18-2020, 04:42 PM   #5
Phantasm
 
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Default Re: Super DR

If your game is using Super ST (which I find has its sweet spot between 9 and 15 levels), then AlexanderHowl's Super DR seems like it should work.

I've never used KYOS, so I cannot offer any suggestions there.
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Old 08-18-2020, 05:20 PM   #6
naloth
 
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Default Re: Super DR

I actually played this solution years ago with Super-Effort for DR, Innate Attack, and other things. It's ok, but I ultimately expanded KYOS rescaling to other things instead to absurd quantities of rolling/multiplication unnecessary.

You can look up my version and justification for doing it that way on my old writeup of Sue Storm.
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Old 08-19-2020, 02:10 PM   #7
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Super DR

But this is not a thread about using the KYOS system to restructure the GURPS system, it is thread about the possibility of introducing Super DR in order to scale DR in a similar fashion to Super ST and Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction). Everything officially published in GURPS 4e, except for a few Pyramid articles and one supplement about Alternative Attributes, pretty much uses the universal attribute system rules, and I believe that the majority of people still use the universal system rules (plus a few of their own house rules) instead of KYOS. Anyway, Super-Effort does not require rolling or multiplication, it just requires simple addition from the Size/Speed table, which you can do during character creation (spend 1 FP and get +42 DR for one minute is not a complex rule).

I am curious, is there any particular reason why we do not see Super-Effort in other attributes/secondary attributes (other than FP and HP)? If a character already possessed DX, IQ, HT, Per, or Will at '20' (or Basic Move or Basic Speed at '10'), I could see the utility of allowing them to purchase Super Effort for +300% for each additional level to represent superhuman capabilities. For example, I would not really see any issues with a Speedster in a super's setting purchasing Super Move, which would be Basic Move with Super Effort (+300%). Super Move 10 [200] would give +10 Basic Move normally (meaning that the character would have a minimum Basic Move of 20), but they could scale their Basic Move to 110 for a minute by spending 1 FP.
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Old 08-19-2020, 02:19 PM   #8
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Super DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
But this is not a thread about using the KYOS system to restructure the GURPS system, it is thread about the possibility of introducing Super DR in order to scale DR in a similar fashion to Super ST and Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction).
Well, the way you've done it is a lot different from Super ST (which applies to a single use, not a minute of use) and is the wrong enhancement value (it's +400% on lifting ST; the reason it's only +300% on ST is because it actually only applies to the lifting and striking portions of ST).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I am curious, is there any particular reason why we do not see Super-Effort in other attributes/secondary attributes (other than FP and HP)?
Because it already inherently applies to DX and IQ (range/speed/size modifiers work on the range/speed/size chart...) where they apply to readily defined physical quantities, doesn't make any sense for HT or DX/IQ rolls that are not applied to physical quantities, and is implemented in a different way (enhanced move) for speed.
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Old 08-19-2020, 02:37 PM   #9
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Super DR

Lifting ST allows for sustained Super-Effort (one minute being the average) and there are other values for Super-Effort other than +400% (Compartmentalized Mind with Massively Parallel and Duplication with Multiplication are only +20%, though they are not usable in combat). Anyway, the choice for Super-Effort at +300% was to scale the price for maximum DR with comparable maximum levels of Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction). For example:

Scale > Super DR > Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction)
I > +8 [184] > /10 [150]
D > +14 [322] > /100 [300]
C > +20 [460] > /1000 [450]
M > +26 [598] > /10,000 [600]

Since Super DR and Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) would be the two scaled super defenses, I thought that it would be good to give them a comparable cost (though they are not effectively equal until the top of M-scale). Charging +400%, on top of requiring Force Field (+20%) and Reflexive (+40%), would have made it so that the prices of the two traits would have never converged.

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 08-19-2020 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 08-19-2020, 06:00 PM   #10
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Super DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Lifting ST allows for sustained Super-Effort (one minute being the average) and there are other values for Super-Effort other than +400% (Compartmentalized Mind with Massively Parallel and Duplication with Multiplication are only +20%, though they are not usable in combat). Anyway, the choice for Super-Effort at +300% was to scale the price for maximum DR with comparable maximum levels of Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction).
That calls for +400% -- IT(DR) is 25/level, so super DR should be 25/level.

I'd probably just combine the traits, though; something like:
IT(DR), Cosmic: Before DR (+50%)
With Before DR, your IT(DR) reduces damage before it is applied to your DR (it may be simpler to treat as multiplying DR). Does not apply to DR from worn armor unless you take force field on your IT(DR).
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