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Old 10-23-2020, 08:21 PM   #31
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

The key thing though with the Unkillable build is that the GM can fill the PC with lead without feeling bad about it. It is great drama if the only warning is that Bob takes it in the liver and the rest of the PCs scatter for cover. Heck, it is a great way to introduce the characters (a mad sniper is picking off people randomly, what do you do?).
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Old 10-23-2020, 09:18 PM   #32
Plane
 
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I can get rid of an Extra Life with a bullet from a good sniper. With a .50 Barrett, I am dealing 6d2 pi+ damage, which deals an average of 63 damage on a torso hit (126 damage to the vitals), and it is a weapon owned by civilians in the USA. With three shots, it is time to build a new character.
assuming the shots HIT of course (how far are you shooting from to be able to eat a Vitals penalty like that?)

worth noting this needs to be either a surprise attack, they did an All-Out Attack, or a critical hit to (prevent a roll) otherwise PU5p4 (1 cp impulse buy) "Buying Success" could convert a normal failure into a normal success and dodge your shot (@1/25 the cost of Extra Life, and not requiring advance purchase)

Even if dodging isn't possible, "Defense v Effect" (p5) would allow them to minimize a pair of dice (guaranteed 2s) per CP spent, so that would be 6 CP to guarantee your shot did 12 Basic Damage.

The x2 to the Vitals is 24 damage, enough to cause a HT check for death on anyone with 12 HP or less, but for HP 13 they're just short of needing to make that roll.

That's not an instant death (though they'll probably still die of it) so it at least requires you to fire extra shots to kill them, which is cheaper than you getting to deplete 25 CP per shot.

Plus: by spending enough CP to prevent death it allows "Flesh Wounds" to negate all but 1 injury (p10) although it still creates the effect of shock (-4) and Major Wounds so they need to make a HT check to avoid knockdown (which they could spend 1 cp to turn a fail into a pass if necessary)
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Old 10-23-2020, 10:06 PM   #33
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The key thing though with the Unkillable build is that the GM can fill the PC with lead without feeling bad about it.
Sure, that does make sense, but seems unrelated to Extra Life. My concern as the player is what the NPC thinks;

"This bullet didn't kill. What will kill them?"

If they are working with anybody, that line of questioning goes further through more people until they find that 1/10 weapon that does keep you down and Common isn't a needle in a haystack. That's why the eventual "you are going to get screwed".

I'm not even saying this power isn't worth 60pts, but I would absolutely look elsewhere if my goal was making sure I don't die.
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Old 10-23-2020, 11:21 PM   #34
Plane
 
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

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"This bullet didn't kill. What will kill them?"
That's probably why it's good not to flaunt it. Like in many cases if an NPC thinks you're normal they'll shoot you and let you bleed out (save ammo) and assume you died.

You should let them think that by faking your death: disguise yourself in a new superhero costume, adopt new habits, etc.

Instead of thinking you're unkillable and searching out your vulnerability they'll assume you're just some friend trying to avenge the old one, or an entirely new spontaneous enemy, etc.

It helps if you weren't killed in civilian guise because then you'd have to ditch your old life (income, social contacts, etc) to keep up the masquerade.
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Old 10-24-2020, 01:30 AM   #35
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The key thing though with the Unkillable build is that the GM can fill the PC with lead without feeling bad about it. It is great drama if the only warning is that Bob takes it in the liver and the rest of the PCs scatter for cover. Heck, it is a great way to introduce the characters (a mad sniper is picking off people randomly, what do you do?).
Except they're not randomly sniping are they? And how long before the players notice that buying Unkillable just means you get to be sniper bait every time the GM wants to make a point?
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Old 10-24-2020, 01:44 AM   #36
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

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Even if dodging isn't possible, "Defense v Effect" (p5) would allow them to minimize a pair of dice (guaranteed 2s) per CP spent, so that would be 6 CP to guarantee your shot did 12 Basic Damage.

The x2 to the Vitals is 24 damage, enough to cause a HT check for death on anyone with 12 HP or less, but for HP 13 they're just short of needing to make that roll.
Vitals is x3 damage from piercing attacks. It's worse than that.
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:28 AM   #37
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

The Flesh Wounds cinematic rule is much cheaper than Extra Life, so I doubt that anyone will ever buy Extra Life in a game that uses that rule. It is arguable whether anyone would purchase Unkillable as well, though 1 CP per death does start getting steep after a while, so anyone planning on dying a lot will likely go with Unkillable and only use the Flesh Wounds rule against their Kryptonite (since there is no reason you could not use both).

I think that the discussion really does show that Extra Life is really, really overpriced for any setting that would allow it. I would honestly rather let players buy Extra Option (Flesh Wounds) [1] as a perk than force them to spend 25 CP for practically the same benefit. In fact, someone could keep a reserve of 4 CP, just in case, and get the same benefit as 100 CP worth of Extra Life.
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:31 AM   #38
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The Flesh Wounds cinematic rule is much cheaper than Extra Life, so I doubt that anyone will ever buy Extra Life in a game that uses that rule. It is arguable whether anyone would purchase Unkillable as well, though 1 CP per death does start getting steep after a while, so anyone planning on dying a lot will likely go with Unkillable and only use the Flesh Wounds rule against their Kryptonite (since there is no reason you could not use both).

I think that the discussion really does show that Extra Life is really, really overpriced for any setting that would allow it. I would honestly rather let players buy Extra Option (Flesh Wounds) [1] as a perk than force them to spend 25 CP for practically the same benefit. In fact, someone could keep a reserve of 4 CP, just in case, and get the same benefit as 100 CP worth of Extra Life.
I would use the alternative rules for Extra Life given in Action. It allows EL to give one free Flesh Wound per session and refunds some points if you lose it before getting 25 points worth from it.
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:38 AM   #39
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

Which is really a correction that they should have given for every use of Extra Life. Of course, the fun thing about all of this is that the right Affliction or Innate Attack with Symptom (Negated Advantage) can end a super with either ability.
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Old 10-24-2020, 03:31 AM   #40
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Default Re: Dirty Cheap Unkillable [Powers]

If spending points on things like Flesh Wounds, etc. isn't allowed Extra Life is worth rather more, as is any form of Unkillable.

Of course, unless they are 'wild' they can more easily be negated by anything that shuts down their power source - mana dead areas, anti-psi, or whatever than with a specific Negate Advantage.

Also, I think there's a pretty good argument that Extra Life would only not apply for the duration of the Negate effect. It doesn't stop you dying after all, but triggers once you're dead, so all that the negate does is delay the trigger, just as something that gave you Unhealing or turned off Regeneration would only stop you healing while it was in effect.

By the way, before calling Extra Life 'over priced', consider that if you're not trying to get Unkillable on the cheap, and pay full price, you get four Extra Life uses for Unkillable 2, and six for Unkillable 3's cost, and if the GM agrees you don't have to buy all the Extra Lives at once. Compared to Unkillable, Extra Life might be quite reasonable if you game doesn't involve getting blown into chunks a lot.

Also, Unkillable 1 increases the value of Extra Life quite a bit if the cause of death is very commonly accumulated damage.
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