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Old 04-17-2020, 10:30 AM   #61
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Don't you ever have situations where someone is doing a long action (typically moving behind cover) and most of the other actors duck down behind solid cover for a few minutes?
If everyone is hunkered down behind cover doing nothing at all for minutes and there are enemies out there, that seems like an open invitation for them to outflank or assault your position while you're not defending it. (If there aren't enemies out there it's fine but tracking things in combat maneuvers is a bit odd.)
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Old 04-17-2020, 03:42 PM   #62
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Don't you ever have situations where someone is doing a long action (typically moving behind cover) and most of the other actors duck down behind solid cover for a few minutes?
If they have the ability to hide somewhere for minutes, then we're no longer in combat time.

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I am saying that in the Basic Set Do Nothing does not accomplish anything, but it does not make the situation worse either. In real fights, a common reason people don't do anything effective is that they don't see an effective action, or that action is more dangerous than they like (stepping into Reach of someone with something sharp and pointy, moving out of cover) or it is blocked on someone else doing something.
Yes, and from what I've seen (both personally and not) is that the person goes on the defensive. Whether or not AoD actually makes a difference is based on their numbers, but people who don't know how to fight 'do nothing' by putting (what they perceive as) survival first. Considering what you can do during AoD (Dodge) lines up perfect with what the average person is doing;

1) Running away (either half move from AoD or Move maneuver)
2) Staying put or stepping

The main situation AoD doesn't quite work is Change Posture, but Dodge and Drop might already be getting them there, too. Although I could see improper Waits never triggering which after-the-fact look like Do Nothing.

Mind, you also have to take into account of the common Combat Paralysis and Surprise. Both can very well emulate why a normal person is actually doing nothing useful.
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Old 04-17-2020, 07:55 PM   #63
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Do Nothing does not put you out of cover where Suppressive Fire or a Wait gets you killed. It does not bring you closer to dangerous opponents or away from allies who you are covering and being covered by. It does not interfere with your Active Defenses.

Its just fiddly to represent all the different reasons why so many people spend so much of a fight doing nothing, and to give game-mechanical benefits for spending a second observing the situation (like The Last Gap to represent that Do Nothing is less tiring than Move, or house rules about how much information the GM gives the players to represent how people in a fight spend time trying to figure out what is happening and choose a next move).
Uh that "spending a second observing the situation" seems to be covered by Evaluate, Aim, or Wait (effectively a special form of Do Nothing) depending on the situation.

I'm starting to get a real 'wait I'm confused; what was I fixing again? Oh look a puppy.' vibe from some this.

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Old 04-17-2020, 08:15 PM   #64
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I'm starting to get a real 'wait I'm confused; what was I fixing again? Oh look a puppy.' vibe from some this.
I have no idea what you're

SQUIRREL!
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Old 04-17-2020, 11:18 PM   #65
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Uh that "spending a second observing the situation" seems to be covered by Evaluate, Aim, or Wait (effectively a special form of Do Nothing) depending on the situation.
That makes perfect sense. Also, did not know Waits were not secret. Welp, time to change up how battles work.
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Old 04-17-2020, 11:29 PM   #66
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That makes perfect sense. Also, did not know Waits were not secret. Welp, time to change up how battles work.
From what I remember from karate class, someone waiting for you to attack is very obvious; it's just a matter of who has the most patience (or in a real fight, presumably, who cannot wait).

Some anecdotes: Your opponent's arm will be slightly out of place, but are they feinting, or is there an actual opening you can exploit? And if it is a feint, can you still take advantage of it? Their feet are slightly out of sync with their arms, but you can't move in to capitalize on it, because you're slightly too far back. And so on.

A lot of RPGs are much more static than "actual" (practice) combat, including GURPS (albeit to a lesser extent than most). The circular motion you get in any fight that goes for more than 2-3 seconds just doesn't generally happen (in RPGs).

Also, this thread has managed to dig up memories from many years ago. :)
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Old 04-18-2020, 01:50 AM   #67
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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From what I remember from karate class, someone waiting for you to attack is very obvious; it's just a matter of who has the most patience (or in a real fight, presumably, who cannot wait).

Some anecdotes: Your opponent's arm will be slightly out of place, but are they feinting, or is there an actual opening you can exploit? And if it is a feint, can you still take advantage of it? Their feet are slightly out of sync with their arms, but you can't move in to capitalize on it, because you're slightly too far back. And so on.

A lot of RPGs are much more static than "actual" (practice) combat, including GURPS (albeit to a lesser extent than most). The circular motion you get in any fight that goes for more than 2-3 seconds just doesn't generally happen (in RPGs).

Also, this thread has managed to dig up memories from many years ago. :)
While Karate was a single style in GURPS Classic Martial Arts there are clear variants in GURPS Martial Arts (4e) so your experience with what ever variant you learns may not be true for all variants of Karate.

See the GURPS wiki's GURPS Martial Arts for a long list of the styles in both books.

Also cinematic styles such as Ranma 1/2's Musabetsu Kakutō Ryū aka Anything Goes Martial Arts (effectively a beefed up satire of Jeet Kune Do) have a Wait state that give the impression of not being ready at all.

While most of the "Techniques" in Musabetsu Kakutō Ryū are jokes that would work only on the very gullible (Hey, look a 10,000 yen note ie about $9 US behind you) the style there has some really insane ki manipulation techniques.

I originally wrote up Mousse for 4e using GURPS Classic Martial Arts and have fully brought him up to 4e on the GURPSwiki

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Old 04-18-2020, 02:16 AM   #68
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While Karate was a single style in GURPS Classic Martial Arts there are clear variants in GURPS Martial Arts (4e) so your experience with what ever variant you learns may not be true for all variants of Karate.

See the GURPS wiki's GURPS Martial Arts for a long list of the styles in both books.

Also cinematic styles such as Ranma 1/2's Musabetsu Kakutō Ryū aka Anything Goes Martial Arts (effectively a beefed up satire of Jeet Kune Do) have a Wait state that give the impression of not being ready at all.

While most of the "Techniques" in Musabetsu Kakutō Ryū are jokes that would work only on the very gullible (Hey, look a 10,000 yen note ie about $9 US behind you) the style there has some really insane ki manipulation techniques.

I originally wrote up Mousse for 4e using GURPS Classic Martial Arts and have fully brought him up to 4e on the GURPSwiki
Yes, "magic martial arts" that don't work in the real world will be different.

As for real-world martial arts, watch some matches of various forms of martial arts. If the initial exchange does not result in a win, I have rarely seen a pair of martial artists not start circling.

As for the rest of my statements, position, timing, and footwork are the core of every single practical martial art, and you will not find a single practical martial art that does not use them. These three things; position, timing, and footwork, are recognizable in every single real-world practical martial art.
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Old 04-18-2020, 02:41 AM   #69
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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That makes perfect sense. Also, did not know Waits were not secret. Welp, time to change up how battles work.
Waits were not secret? It is the last maneuver for Combat Lite (Basic Set pg 325) so I'm not sure how anyone could think it was a secret.

Side note: Anything on page 336 and below (Characters) is accessible to the players. Now 337 and above (Campaigns) could be considered the GURPS equivalent of the DMG but as mentioned Combat Lite is in the Characters section.

Now the advanced combat system - that is in the Campaigns and personally I tend to avoid it as it can get D&D4e levels of bogged down if you or your players really aren't familiar with the Combat Lite version of the GURPS combat system.
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Old 04-18-2020, 03:17 AM   #70
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Yes, "magic martial arts" that don't work in the real world will be different.

As for real-world martial arts, watch some matches of various forms of martial arts. If the initial exchange does not result in a win, I have rarely seen a pair of martial artists not start circling.

As for the rest of my statements, position, timing, and footwork are the core of every single practical martial art, and you will not find a single practical martial art that does not use them. These three things; position, timing, and footwork, are recognizable in every single real-world practical martial art.
This is why the list of Martial Arts style over on the GURPSwiki is setup the way it is - techniques as much as skills are what really make a style.

Per the Belt system in GURPS (Classic) Martial Arts some styles take far more work to get to the "black belt" level then others.

For example, Kyokushin has 3 skills and 12 techniques while Isshinryu has 3 skills but only 8 techniques so it is slightly harder to get to the 15 in all skills and learn all techniques for black belt status in the former then the later.

Kalaripayit at 13 skills and 4 techniques is a real "ouchie".

Do "black belts" in radically different styles really circle each other or that something that people at the lower levels do?

Last edited by maximara; 04-18-2020 at 03:51 AM.
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