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Old 04-15-2020, 04:03 PM   #51
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by joppeknol View Post
A suggestion: Instead of punishing a player who take too much action, reward a player who does a do nothing roll.

What can a do-nothing action do?

- Give time to ask questions.
- Give bonus on defense (+1, so no AOA)
- Give bonus on next attack (+1, so no evaluate)
- give the option to make an information roll about something (Is the enemy hurt, what is his weakness, etc).
- Can move around.

The idea is that PC automatically will take do-nothings because they're useful. Maybe do-nothing is not a good name.
The information roll to know about something is I believe a Concentrate maneuver against the relevant skill (or Per to just get a good feel of the battlefield). 'Can move at full move' is a Move maneuver (or Move and Attack). The others seem like other maneuvers already available.

I don't mind Do Nothing being a maneuver, especially in the context of it being 'forced' from stun or to avoid getting knocked out from low HP. I dislike the idea of using it as punishment.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 04-16-2020, 02:09 AM   #52
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
The information roll to know about something is I believe a Concentrate maneuver against the relevant skill (or Per to just get a good feel of the battlefield). 'Can move at full move' is a Move maneuver (or Move and Attack). The others seem like other maneuvers already available.

I don't mind Do Nothing being a maneuver, especially in the context of it being 'forced' from stun or to avoid getting knocked out from low HP. I dislike the idea of using it as punishment.
As written Do Nothing can't be a punishment as the character still has access to all defense options and is at a -4 only when stunned which has pretty high requirements to meet. As i mentioned before only All-Out Attack prevents a defense.

I really suggest taking a good look at the Maneuver table on the GURPSwiki and note what options each Maneuver gives.

I say this because there seems to be this misconception that Do Nothing means the character has gone into 'deer in headlights' mode and just stands there as the opponent pounds on them/cuts them to pieces. That is not what happens with Do Nothing. I agree that perhaps Do Nothing should have been called something else - perhaps Stand Still.

Last edited by maximara; 04-16-2020 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 04-16-2020, 03:45 AM   #53
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
The thing about the OODA loop is that it generally doesn't have to complete or reset them until something significant changes or you try and do something significantly different. e.g. if you pull a knife on me once I've O,O & D I then A (and do you) I can likely keep on "A-ing" until the situation is resolved without closing the loop and going back to OOD Unless something significant changes
That is a beautiful example of the kind of thing which restarts the OODA loop: "I thought we were just shoving around, but he drew a knife! I need to observe that, orient myself, decide what to do and act. What, his his buddy has me by the leg! I need to observe that, orient- now I am bleeding, I am bleeding more, my left eye does not work, I am on the floor being kicked in the teeth, I am passing out." Alternatively, people try to repeat what they were doing before the new information presented itself, which usually ends badly ("I lunge at him again and try to make him kiss the table! I am bleeding from my belly, my right hand does not work.") Remember, Boyd was a theorist of air-to-air combat trying to understand why some fighter pilots are so much more lethal than others.

If anything, Do Nothing is generous. People often freeze in combat when presented with the unexpected, losing the ability to make Active Defenses.
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Old 04-16-2020, 04:48 AM   #54
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
As written Do Nothing can't be a punishment as the character still has access to all defense options and is at a -4 only when stunned which has pretty high requirements to meet. As i mentioned before only All-Out Attack prevents a defense.

I really suggest taking a good look at the Maneuver table on the GURPSwiki and note what options each Maneuver gives.

I say this because there seems to be this misconception that Do Nothing means the character has gone into 'deer in headlights' mode and just stands there as the opponent pounds on them/cuts them to pieces. That is not what happens with Do Nothing. I agree that perhaps Do Nothing should have been called something else - perhaps Stand Still.
I'm not saying you don't get no defenses with Do Nothing (and I don't think I ever implied that). I'm saying that it's a terrible choice to make compared to any other maneuver, and strictly worse than many of them. As written there is zero reason to pick it at all, especially when Move, AoD (Dodge), and Evaluate are right there. The punishment is 'You didn't decide fast enough so you pick the worst maneuver', regardless of what the maneuver is called.
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Old 04-16-2020, 05:41 AM   #55
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
it's a terrible choice to make compared to any other maneuver, and strictly worse than many of them. As written there is zero reason to pick it at all, especially when Move, AoD (Dodge), and Evaluate are right there.
Even before Last Gasp gave it a better HT roll than Evaluate for recovering Action Points, there was the tiny aspect of it being the only thing you could do to avoid unconsciousness rolls when at negative HP.
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Old 04-16-2020, 03:16 PM   #56
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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there was the tiny aspect of it being the only thing you could do to avoid unconsciousness rolls when at negative HP.
True and I did touch upon that, but that's also pretty close to a 'forced' action where you are doing it due to a circumstance largely out of your control.
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Old 04-16-2020, 04:26 PM   #57
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
I'm not saying you don't get no defenses with Do Nothing (and I don't think I ever implied that). I'm saying that it's a terrible choice to make compared to any other maneuver, and strictly worse than many of them. As written there is zero reason to pick it at all, especially when Move, AoD (Dodge), and Evaluate are right there. The punishment is 'You didn't decide fast enough so you pick the worst maneuver', regardless of what the maneuver is called.
Do Nothing does not put you out of cover where Suppressive Fire or a Wait gets you killed. It does not bring you closer to dangerous opponents or away from allies who you are covering and being covered by. It does not interfere with your Active Defenses.

Its just fiddly to represent all the different reasons why so many people spend so much of a fight doing nothing, and to give game-mechanical benefits for spending a second observing the situation (like The Last Gap to represent that Do Nothing is less tiring than Move, or house rules about how much information the GM gives the players to represent how people in a fight spend time trying to figure out what is happening and choose a next move).
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Old 04-16-2020, 05:08 PM   #58
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Do Nothing does not put you out of cover where Suppressive Fire or a Wait gets you killed. It does not bring you closer to dangerous opponents or away from allies who you are covering and being covered by. It does not interfere with your Active Defenses.

Its just fiddly to represent all the different reasons why so many people spend so much of a fight doing nothing, and to give game-mechanical benefits for spending a second observing the situation (like The Last Gap to represent that Do Nothing is less tiring than Move, or house rules about how much information the GM gives the players to represent how people in a fight spend time trying to figure out what is happening and choose a next move).
Yes, I do agree there can be situations where Do Nothing might be appropriate. But considering they've never come up with me as a player or GM, I still see it as a punishment for forcing players to do it.

As for the second part, yes house rules (which I sort of put Pyramid articles under) can change things. But I already use Concentrates and Evaluates for letting players gain knowledge since at least some of that is intended (Kromm talks about using a Concentrate and an appropriate skill roll to do things like figure out how much damage a foe has taken and what thresholds of HP they've crossed).
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Old 04-16-2020, 05:29 PM   #59
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

What if, for taking a Recovery Event (Do Nothing, Evaluate, or Wait manoeuvre), a player can gain extra action points when they make a successful Perception roll, Tactics roll, or other relevant "OOD" roll? Provided the roll was for something useful, and does not turn the event into a Strenuous Event, as determined by the GM at the time.
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Old 04-17-2020, 06:56 AM   #60
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Yes, I do agree there can be situations where Do Nothing might be appropriate. But considering they've never come up with me as a player or GM, I still see it as a punishment for forcing players to do it.
Don't you ever have situations where someone is doing a long action (typically moving behind cover) and most of the other actors duck down behind solid cover for a few minutes?

I am saying that in the Basic Set Do Nothing does not accomplish anything, but it does not make the situation worse either. In real fights, a common reason people don't do anything effective is that they don't see an effective action, or that action is more dangerous than they like (stepping into Reach of someone with something sharp and pointy, moving out of cover) or it is blocked on someone else doing something.

This is sort of like Time Use sheets: without house rules characters will be far more effective at self-improvement than most human beings, but introducing those house rules is not punishment, its just switching the tone in a gritty/slice of life direction.
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