Making Imbuements based on Will balanced ([Power-Ups 1: Imbuements], [Powers])

[phayman53]

I really like the flavor of Imbuements in Power-Ups 1, but I never liked that they are based on DX (at least for any mystically powered imbuements). I usually think basing them on IQ makes more sense, but recently I really have started to like the idea of basing them off of Will. I see this as analogous to Power Blow: a warrior who is able to channel some sort of mystical energy by force of will through a weapon in order to increase its performance or alter its effects in some way. The problem is that Will only costs 5 pts per level and therefore it would be really cheap to increase a warrior's imbuement skill levels by just increasing will. Other than charging more for Will, I was trying to come figure out some way to balance basing the skill off of Will with the cost of other abilities.

My basic idea is to simply use the Based on (Different Attribute) Enhancement based on the rules in [Powers] (pg 100) and add a +20% modifier to the Imbue advantage ([Powers] allows Based on (Different Attribute) to change the controlling attribute for an ability that requires a roll rather than the targeted resistance ability). The upside of this is that it seems to be RAW. It also may not be too powerful because Imbuements in RAW are based on DX, which is usually efficient for a warrior to raise anyway as it will help the weapon skills used with the imbuement as well as the imbuement itself. But, on the other hand, it still only increases the cost of imbuements by a flat 2, 4, or 8 points depending on the level of the imbuement advantage and it allows increasing the controlling attribute level for 10 points/level less than DX! or 5 points/level less than IQ! (and I am using PK's optional rule of making Will and Per completely independent of IQ, so it is actually 15 points less/level than IQ).

So, what do you think, does using the Based on (Different Attribute) (+20%) enhancement seem balanced, or should I do something else like add +50% Cosmic to the Imbue Advantage (or even to levels of Will above 10 since I have separated Will from IQ)?

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by phayman53

So, what do you think, does using the Based on (Different Attribute) (+20%) enhancement seem balanced, or should I do something else like add +50% Cosmic to the Imbue Advantage (or even to levels of Will above 10 since I have separated Will from IQ)?

Given the metaphysics of the imbuements as you've described them, it looks fairly balanced to me. You're countering the lower price of Will compared to IQ by increasing the price of Imbue, which seems like a fair trade in theory to me.

[Varyon]

I ran into a similar problem when I came up with Soul Energy. My solution there was simple - I simply added a new trait, Potency, which served as a cap on Will for purposes of using the various Specialist Skills. The price is up to you; I'd personally suggest [5], as I used - this makes Will-based Imbuement skills a little cheaper ([10] instead of [5] per +1 to controlling attribute), than the DX-based ones, but DX is so much more useful otherwise than Will that it probably balances out (in fact, as there's so much overlap between "Warrior" and "Imbuement-user," DX-based Imbue might be overall cheaper than outright Will-based, without needing Potency - I personally went for Potency just so Soul Energy users would have more variability amongst themselves).

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by phayman53

The problem is that Will only costs 5 pts per level and therefore it would be really cheap to increase a warrior's imbuement skill levels by just increasing will. Other than charging more for Will, I was trying to come figure out some way to balance basing the skill off of Will with the cost of other abilities.

How about instead of basing them on straight Will you base them on 5+(Will/2) or (IQ+Will)/2? Either of these will mitigate the lower cost of buying Will by requiring the player to buy two levels of Will to get a +1 to skill level.

[Humabout]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

How about instead of basing them on straight Will you base them on 5+(Will/2) or (IQ+Will)/2? Either of these will mitigate the lower cost of buying Will by requiring the player to buy two levels of Will to get a +1 to skill level.

This is interesting, but then you get players with insane Will scores. That might not matter if there arent many Fright Checks or Extra Effort rolls to make, but it might have a few odd side effects.

This may sound heretical, but have you considered just charging more for Will? Attributes are basically talents for skills and non-skill rolls. By making Imbuements a large, Will-based set of skills, you make Will a broader talent and thus worth more. If Imbuements aren't a common part of the game, then I'd do as Varyon suggests and make a Will-capping UB that effectively ups the cost of Will for imbuement purposes.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Humabout

This is interesting, but then you get players with insane Will scores. That might not matter if there arent many Fright Checks or Extra Effort rolls to make, but it might have a few odd side effects.

Get the numbers right and you'll get players working on their Talent before the attribute, which if they're only looking for more Imbuement skill should be the "cheap" way. If they want more Imbuement skill AND other stuff, it should be more expensive.

Originally Posted by Humabout

This may sound heretical, but have you considered just charging more for Will?

IMC, I made Will a separate attribute and ripped all the social influence skills off IQ and put them on Will, waving my hands around and mumbling something about force of personality. I charge 10/level for it.

[Humabout]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Get the numbers right and you'll get players working on their Talent before the attribute, which if they're only looking for more Imbuement skill should be the "cheap" way. If they want more Imbuement skill AND other stuff, it should be more expensive.

Hmm, but that would imply needing more than 2 levels of Will (10/+1 to Imbuements) before it's cheaper to just take an Imbuement talent. That starts to edge more into the talent serving as a sort of "Imbuement Attribute" on its own. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I don't think it's what Eric had in mind.

Originally Posted by Bruno

IMC, I made Will a separate attribute and ripped all the social influence skills off IQ and put them on Will, waving my hands around and mumbling something about force of personality. I charge 10/level for it.

That's interesting. I find myself leaning more and more toward PK's separation of Will and Per from IQ as it is. That does give Will more teeth. Hmm, I say.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Humabout

That's interesting. I find myself leaning more and more toward PK's separation of Will and Per from IQ as it is. That does give Will more teeth. Hmm, I say.

It makes about as much sense as it being pure IQ based - and Will is already involved in that you resist social skills with Will, not IQ. I kept Diplomacy IQ based though, it just seems thematically appropriate.

[phayman53]

Originally Posted by Bruno

IMC, I made Will a separate attribute and ripped all the social influence skills off IQ and put them on Will, waving my hands around and mumbling something about force of personality. I charge 10/level for it.

Originally Posted by Bruno

It makes about as much sense as it being pure IQ based - and Will is already involved in that you resist social skills with Will, not IQ. I kept Diplomacy IQ based though, it just seems thematically appropriate.

I kinda like this idea, and I think it could easily be extended to Per as well (provided they are both separted from IQ). Both Per and Will have a number of skills based on them already (probably about the same number as HT, especially if you make most social skills based on Will), as well as many other benefits, which makes them on par with ST and HT depending on the campaign. I could definitely see the merit of "promoting" them to full attributes like ST and HT. However, I think most templates and campaign starting point levels would need to be increased by at least 20% (it costs 60% of a 100 point character to have all 11s for stats, with this house rule it would require 120 total for the same power level of all 11s, everything else equal).

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by phayman53

Both Per and Will have a number of skills based on them already (probably about the same number as HT, especially if you make most social skills based on Will)...

There are 14 HT based skills, 13 Per based skills, 14 Will based skills in the basic book alone.


I have a list.