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Old 02-18-2016, 04:06 AM   #31
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
There's a reason why people complain that GURPS can't handle large-scale stuff. I think Control's expense is an example of that sort of thing, where non-local stuff, where mythic/epic stuff becomes ridiculously expensive, while local stuff is quite affordable, so players love to play Conan, but tend to hesitate when taking cool powers, especially dramatically large-scale powers. This is another reason why vanilla Magic remains popular and sorcery struggles, despite being more unified, because vanilla magic allows you to do the sort of wide-scale stuff or epic stuff without spending hundreds or thousands of points.
Were going to have to agree to dsagree on the value then because our approaches are totally different.
However I wanted to address this part...
Saying GURPS cant handle large scale stuff because it costs too much is just incorrect. Epic characters should be on an epic point budget.
I built the Silver Surfer in GURPS once. Did he cost lots more then daredevil or most other Supers we built? Of course he did, but he's a lot more powerful and rare also, so I am fine with that. It does not mean GURPS cant do Supers because you cant build a lot of them on under 250 or even 500 points.

The Witch or mage who can curse an entire kingdom is rare in fiction or any game system I can think of. Most sources would do this as a very limited type of spell that just cant be done with a seconds concentration.
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Old 02-18-2016, 04:50 AM   #32
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Were going to have to agree to dsagree on the value then because our approaches are totally different.
No no, don't do that. I'm not arguing because I want to win, or even because I want to convince you that I'm right and we should change how it works. I'm staking out a position, somewhat more extreme than I actually have, to generate discussion. I'm "challenging an idea," as my boss puts it. I believe you probably have a very good reason for your position, and I want to hear it. I want to see all sides. Maybe you even think it costs TOO LITTLE. If so, I want to know why.

Quote:
However I wanted to address this part...
Saying GURPS cant handle large scale stuff because it costs too much is just incorrect. Epic characters should be on an epic point budget.
I built the Silver Surfer in GURPS once. Did he cost lots more then daredevil or most other Supers we built? Of course he did, but he's a lot more powerful and rare also, so I am fine with that. It does not mean GURPS cant do Supers because you cant build a lot of them on under 250 or even 500 points.
The problem is not that it's too expensive, it's that it's too expensive in comparison to other things. You have the same problem with Extra Attack or ST, where you're better off achieving your ends using some other means.

Do you want to be a scary witch that curses the land? Well, that's prohibitively expensive, but you could create a witch that casts a bunch of afflictions on tons of people, that's no problem. Your costs funnel people's choices. If you make Control (Natural Phenomenon) unacceptably expensive, people are going to go somewhere else?

I mean, why would you even take it? "Well, what if I want to control Natural phenomenon." Okay, sure, you'll take it then, but someone else might say "I want to be a scary witch who curses the land," and then realize that the "scary witch" part is more interesting than the "curses the land" part when she sees the pricetag and then revises the specifics of her concept so she can also afford other things she might want ("Like a totally cool demon familiar! Oh look at how cheap Allies are!")

What benefit is gained by making Control (Natural Phenomenon) prohivibitively expensive, compared to other abilities and powers? I suspect that Control itself is as expensive as it is because it's so open-ended (though if that's so, we should compare it more closely to alternate abilities, modular powers, and wildcard powers). But Natural Phenomenon largely isn't. It basically boils down to "You can apply +/- per 120 points you spend" which is... very heavy.

For that matter, if I'm going to complain further, I don't like how are and effect are tied together here. Why not let me buy, at most, +/- 1, and then set the radius to whatever I want, like just a single farm, or perhaps an entire kingdom! And, furthermore, we should have a more reasonable scaling. Being able to curse a 10 mile radius or an 11 mile radius should be a pretty minor difference, but here, it's +400 points. Why is that? I'd rather see area treated like it is in the core book, where each doubling is +100%, or something.

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The Witch or mage who can curse an entire kingdom is rare in fiction or any game system I can think of. Most sources would do this as a very limited type of spell that just cant be done with a seconds concentration.
They seem extraordinarily common, actually. Many stories have at least one. They're not common in their fiction, but they're exceptionally common. The reverse, the king or the priestess who can bless the land, is also very common.
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Old 02-18-2016, 05:11 AM   #33
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

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Control (N.P.) isn't limited to exactly one constant effect and one modifier. That is, it doesn't give you "+3 to this skill" for your own rolls. You can adapt the effect on a whim, and it affects others in your radius, too. It's +/- 3 to anyone within a 0.9 mile radius, as long as you can think of a decent excuse for how your element helps or hinders them.

So, not just your Strategy roll, but all your rolls, and the hit, damage, resistance, and morale rolls of every soldier for you, against every enemy roll, against the enemy general's Strategy, their wagon drivers, their cooks, their camp followers... Think of it as a mile-wide bonus for everything for your side plus malus for the enemy, and while very expensive, it might not seem overpriced.

As Powers says, "It’s also standard for divine and spirit powers associated with gods and spirits that govern elements, and the cosmic powers of these entities." You have god-like power, so a god-like price.
Alright, some other godlike powers with a radius of about a mile (or the effectiveness of an army):

Burning attack 1d [32]
Area 2000 yard radius +550%
Emanation -20%
Selective Area: +20%

Affliction 1 [80]
Advantage (Higher Purpose [5]) +50%
Area 2000 yard radius +550%
Emanation -20%
Selective Area: +20%
Maledicition +100%

Ally group (50%, 100, Almost all the time) [180]
Summonable +100%
Minion +50%

Control 9 (Natural Phenomenon, Common) [360]

None of these have any casting costs or power-source or anything like that. Of course, in a real game, you'd have those things. These are just to give an order of magnitude look. If you're right, then I would expect things like being able to blast a mile radius area over and over again would be in the same ballpark as Control 9 (same radius, control has more flexibility, but less impact), but it's a tenth of the cost. Simply applying a +1 to everyone in a mile radius for doing something that you support is about a 5th of the cost, and summoning an entire army of fairly compentend critters whenever you want is a half the cost.

If your intent is to rain hell on your foes and bless your allies, would you rather spend ~100 points on the first two abilities, or ~400 points on Control (Natural Phenomenon)?

I get that the generic should be a bit expensive to take care of edge cases and clever tricks, but if we constantly favor the specific this heavily over the generic, you create a situation where people are rewarded for going into excruciating detail in their characters, especially at high power levels, and that can become very unwieldy very quickly.
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Old 02-18-2016, 08:28 AM   #34
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
I get that the generic should be a bit expensive to take care of edge cases and clever tricks, but if we constantly favor the specific this heavily over the generic, you create a situation where people are rewarded for going into excruciating detail in their characters, especially at high power levels, and that can become very unwieldy very quickly.
And you didn't even factor in Alternative Abilities... which could far surpass Control (Natural Phenomenon) and still end up cheaper.
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Old 02-18-2016, 08:50 AM   #35
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Control (N.P.) isn't limited to exactly one constant effect and one modifier. That is, it doesn't give you "+3 to this skill" for your own rolls. You can adapt the effect on a whim, and it affects others in your radius, too. It's +/- 3 to anyone within a 0.9 mile radius, as long as you can think of a decent excuse for how your element helps or hinders them.

So, not just your Strategy roll, but all your rolls, and the hit, damage, resistance, and morale rolls of every soldier for you, against every enemy roll, against the enemy general's Strategy, their wagon drivers, their cooks, their camp followers... Think of it as a mile-wide bonus for everything for your side plus malus for the enemy, and while very expensive, it might not seem overpriced.
No, not really. Its not 'a decent excuse'. For normal control, perhaps. For Natural phenomenon, I'm not seeing a case in which you get to distinguish between folks 10 feet away from each other. Or 30 yards, for that matter. And weather doesn't lend itself to bonuses.
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Old 02-18-2016, 09:57 AM   #36
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

The base cost of Control may be a little high, certainly some builds seem expensive. But there is an incredible amount of versatility your paying for.
A for the Area that was addressed above. I kind of like the gradual.

So I had this Super who was a killer whale with hydrokinesis. Originally in Champions I ported him to GURPs as a mental exercise.
Don't have his stat sheet anymore but roughly it was something like...
Control (Water/Ocean) 20 with Natural Phenoma, Selective and a bunch of limitations. Also a lot of AA with it as the base power.
He pretty much ruled the ocean with this power.
Tidal waves, high and low tide to mess with harbours and shipping, sink ships, change the path of icebergs and even affect the weather a little.

Back to the Weather example.
With it you can create Per penalties or remove some (Fog, drizzle, heavy cloud cover). You can give penalties or bonuses to Archery skills by changing or stilling the Wind. Effect morale and economics, block or open travel routes, flood or dry up an area, muddy fields (bad footing), snow, ice up a lake to cross it then melt it behind you, mess with supplies, feed your army better with fresh drinking water or help the crops grow, do the opposite to your enemies, etc.

Add Range or Remote or a good set of movement abilities to more easily affect large areas.
It really is a limited MA and a good foundation for more powerful but limited effects like attacks as AA.
And its neat :)
You said its common in other sources so give me some examples and I bet their either highly limited or epic charecters.
In Supers its Storm and Thor that I can think of.
Excalibur had Merlin create a fog but it seemed like something that cost him, not a casual spell.
Things like Prep required 8 hours don't hurt strategic powers as much as tactical ones either.

I do not understand the concept that strategic powers should be cheaper then tactical ones because they come up less often.
An assault rifle is more common and useful tactically then a nuclear bomb but the latter should cost more IMO.
Strategic powers may not come up as often but when they do their more dramatic and tend to have larger effects in the game.
Also fewer countermeasures.
And you can use this power tactically as well.
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Old 02-18-2016, 10:04 AM   #37
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

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If your intent is to rain hell on your foes and bless your allies, would you rather spend ~100 points on the first two abilities, or ~400 points on Control (Natural Phenomenon)?

I get that the generic should be a bit expensive to take care of edge cases and clever tricks, but if we constantly favor the specific this heavily over the generic, you create a situation where people are rewarded for going into excruciating detail in their characters, especially at high power levels, and that can become very unwieldy very quickly.
If my intent was just limited to more limited powers then yes Control would not be the best option. Control is for all the other stuff and I don't really consider what I just posted as edge cases or particularly clever tricks.

As to the Bless the Land of my Kingdom I go with Special Rapport and if I'm being picky the Meld Enhancement from Permeation.
Yeah not actually RAW but I like it.
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Old 02-18-2016, 10:26 AM   #38
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

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...
I do not understand the concept that strategic powers should be cheaper then tactical ones because they come up less often.
...
I do not recall the argument that strategic powers should be cheaper than tactical ones. Though it may have been what others read.

I believe the arguments was strategic powers should not be an order of magnitude more expensive than tactical ones. 2-3x the cost maybe, but not this degree of distance. Further, as pointed out by Mailanka, this is a strategic ability that costs an order of magnitude more than other stigmatic abilities.

More importantly, as far as I know Control (Natural Phenomena) only does one thing mechanically: give +/- X to rolls. Is this true? Does it do anything else that isn't a special effect?
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Old 02-18-2016, 10:51 AM   #39
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

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GURPS has several scaling layers: the personal, the local, the regional. Broadsword, tactics, strategy; or fast-talk, public speaking, politics; or merchant, market analysis, economics, and so on. In all these cases, the prices are the same... and why shouldn't they be? Even though a higher-scale ability has farther reaching effects and potentially greater implications, this tends to be watered down by the fact that it won't make much of a difference locally: A swordsman is stronger than a strategist right here and now, but a strategist is stronger than the swordsman in the big picture.
He says it here, later on its a magnitude thing but the idea Im arguing against (one of them) is that its reasonable and to me desirable for Strategic powers to cost more.
He also posts why should Storm cost more then Cyclops or Wolverine.
My answer is she is a lot more powerful in the eyes of the world at large.

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Originally Posted by Lia Valenth View Post
I do not recall the argument that strategic powers should be cheaper than tactical ones. Though it may have been what others read.

I believe the arguments was strategic powers should not be an order of magnitude more expensive than tactical ones. 2-3x the cost maybe, but not this degree of distance. Further, as pointed out by Mailanka, this is a strategic ability that costs an order of magnitude more than other stigmatic abilities.

More importantly, as far as I know Control (Natural Phenomena) only does one thing mechanically: give +/- X to rolls. Is this true? Does it do anything else that isn't a special effect?
The bonus and penalty is just to give the ability some crunch and the GM something to work off of.
It is an easily understood mechanic and can be used to give an idea on how drastic a change you can make.
This gets into where the base cost may need adjustment but its pretty hard to figure.

Edit: Honestly Create and Control need a Power Ups book to provide examples and round them out.
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Last edited by Refplace; 02-18-2016 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 02-18-2016, 11:04 AM   #40
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Default Re: Why is Control (Natural Phenomena) so expensive?

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
...
The bonus and penalty is just to give the ability some crunch and the GM something to work off of.
It is an easily understood mechanic and can be used to give an idea on how drastic a change you can make.
This gets into where the base cost may need adjustment but its pretty hard to figure.
I have always thought you build the mechanical effect you want and how it works is just special effects. While there are a lot of arguments that can be made about what Control (NP) should be able to do, all it does is give bonuses or penalties within an area.

If I create an affliction that does the same thing, at a lower cost, and say the affliction works by "controlling the weather" it should work exactly the same as Control (NP). I am currently working on such an ability to present, although there are two big problems.

First: Advantages that give blanket Bonuses/Penalties are hard to come by to my knowledge. My current solution, after Higher Purpose for the first +1, is to use Advantage (Increase ST, DX, IQ, and HT) for each +1 and Negative Attribute (Decrease ST, DX, IQ, and HT) for each -1 in the afflictions. While this will give bonuses/penalties to almost any roll I can think of, it does do more than that which relates to,
Second: limitations are needed to make it as weak as Control (NP), but do not assist in decreasing its cost by any noteworthy amount, so why use them? It is already coming out cheaper than Control (NP) so...
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